IGF 2017 - Day 2 - Room XII - OF 22 Digital Transformation of the Lebanese Telecom Sector


The following are the outputs of the real-time captioning taken during the Twelfth Annual Meeting of the Internet Governance Forum (IGF) in Geneva, Switzerland, from 17 to 21 December 2017. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid to understanding the proceedings at the event, but should not be treated as an authoritative record. 




>> Welcome to the digital transformation of the Lebanese telecommunications sector.  First I would like to thank the IGF for organizing this conference and I would like to invite our ‑‑ myself first time analyst to present his presentation of our digital presentation in Lebanon.

My name is Antoine I work for the minister of communication in Lebanon.  I'm the vice president for ‑‑ VP/CTO for IMS and IT affairs.  I am also responsible for the telecommunication for the spectrum and the licensing.

Can you start, please?


>> He has to see it on his screen.

>> Antoine:  Can I have it on my screen?


>> Antoine:  My presentation about the digital performs for the Lebanese Telecom sector.  Next, please.

It's a small video.

We start about the sustainable parts from having agile.  Digital transformation, it's not a digital infrastructure promotion; it's a digital thinking evolution.  It's all about the customer.  We have to think about our customers, what they need and what they want and how to deal with this and this requires to have a network, we have to start building the networks.  Next, please.

Digital transformation starting was a transport network which is a backbone of all the telecommunications.  The DBM and IPMLS.


We have built in IPMLS based network.  In order to enhance the Telecom sector, we need to enhance our backbone our core.  Fore this we have started implementing nationwide which connects all the switches together, all the main sites together, along with the network that can be connected to the subscribers.  On top of it we have IPMLS network that will allow to provide and provision different services provided by our different customers.

Next, please.

The next part is about the introduction of migration from all TBM switches to the IMS.


And the way forward we started by building IMS network.  This was recently by one way.  This they finished the deployment of the MS core.  Following it we'll have to start implementing the access and for this in the coming slide we are coming to see how this will happen and migration or subscriber will start early 2018.

For using this IMS network we can move along from basic tell common services which are another voice, analogue facts, regular services, like collating divert clip to value added services on this IMS network.  This will allow us to have the same services we had before but we can add the neutral resources like video and different value added services provided by the IMS.

Next, please.

Knew that we have finished up‑grading the core, we're going to move to up‑grade our existing submarine and optical network.  Actually we have three major sub.  The first is IME and third is editor.  Two of them are carrying Internet which are caboose and IME and they have been recently upgraded to the latest technologies available and each one of them can carryover 1.6 terabyte per second.

Also, we are thinking about ‑‑ we are working on some new project to introduce new cables that will allow Lebanon to be connected to new and different destinations.


The next part is about the FTEC ‑‑ or FTTX networks which allow us to connect our subscriber related to access part.  Fiber optic, it's the way forward for all the Internet access.  It will allow us to give very high speed Internet or whatever subscriber needs as speed and capacity.

Here we can see the different FTTX scenarios.  We'll start from ADSL, which is existing service today.  This service has limitation distances where we can reach an average of two‑point gigabyte per second.  After comes VDSL and two plus and factoring which allows us to go for higher speeds, much higher, especially when in distances with less than 800.  With vector we can reach something like 100‑megabyte per second.  After that we have the FTTX, which is fiber connected.  First two were a couple connected and here we are as much as possible.  Our existing infrastructure and for some who wish to go beyond these speeds we will deploy FTTH or FTTR or FTTB depending on subscriber needs.  But first in order to use as much as possible or as our GM says use it, existing infrastructure as much as we can, we have to build the FTTC.  As I said before, the VDSL and vectoring they can work well for distances up to 800‑meter.  For this reason we need the fiber to connect to FTTC while we deploy fiber connected cabinet on the street which is nearest point of the cyber.  Like that we can make use of the existing couple.  After that becomes FHHT where subscriber is connected via fiber and you are talking about speeds that start with one gigabyte per second and goes much beyond that.

Next, please.

Here we can see different ‑‑ evolution of the different technologies starting with ADSL VDSL vectoring which is using the same VDSL technology, enhanced protein contaminants in order to increase the bandwidth.  Then the G fast which is a technology using the copper inside the building because G fast works well for 100 or a couple of hundred of meters, 200 meters, something like that, not more and after that comes the fiber connected network.

Next, please.

Now we're going to move to the advanced LTE which has been planned for the area where we don't cable connected subscribers, neither copper or fiber.


The advanced LTE which has been awarded recently also to Wauwe they will implement this by next year.  Wireless subscribers to this LTE, advanced LTE network.  It will allow us to give them the recent technology, state of the art connections where they can have same services as they can have on the couple.  Also more interesting they will have it for same price as cable connected network.

We move to the Lebanon service enabler for the different enterprising companies.

Next, please.  We start using metal band IT.  Those existing technologies will allow us to deploy IT nationwide.  This will enable the different stakeholders in Lebanon to move forward with the different services they want to use starting from stencils application, VP service and others.


This will allow IoT network will allow us to provide services related to home control and home management.  We can do smart cities management also.  Smart house and smart agricultures and others.  Anybody have done a couple of pilot projects and showed very successful results.  First one is related to agriculture where we have had the pilot, was one of the pilot companies in Lebanon for a winery in the Bakah valley to monitor the state of the winery and proper irrigation, pest cried and reduced pest cried usage as much as possible using the different ‑‑ that as it has been collected.  Also we have done smart city project for services like elect metering, gas, water, fuel monitoring, also for smart data collection system.

Also another one for car parking.

Next, please.

Also another service we are going to provide work, IT and video on demand, this type of service will allow the different stakeholders to provide different services related to content provisioning and other services.

Finally, the digital transformation.  All this was nationally broadband network.  We can realize division of smart, efficient, safe society and this can be for the different services related to house, transportation, tourism, whatever service we can think of can use this national broadband network to be enhanced with its services.

The E country platform is a strategic measurement to improve any country overall ICT capability.  And all this starts with having a good backbone, good Internet connection, good data network that can provide all the different connection for the different stakeholders.

Next, please.

Also, we are work on a new data center for the whole country so that the different parts can host their data, their power requirement, computing power requirement instead of using somewhere else.

This data center will also provide the cloud services as I said before for the different stakeholders use their computing power requirement and data storage.

Same as before.  Next, please.

This cloud infrastructure will allow as we can see on the if I go to interconnect all these different services, starting from financial education, videos surveillance, whatever service we can think it can be hosted and managed to connect.

Azure also is working to become incubator for ICT.  Have many platforms use for our testing, for training, this equipment maybe 20 percent of the time is used for training and remaining of the time they are free so we can use them to provide for those requiring to test, validate some ideas also.

Next.  Also, we don't have to forget to be green to help our nature and save it.

All these services that we are talking about requires to have a new customer relation system and new building system in order to accommodate to be able to share all these different services.  Customer CRM and billing system has been awarded recently to a company and they will start the deployment early in January 2018.

Finally, one team, one spirit, one digital Lebanon, this is our aim.  Thank you.


>> Antoine:  Next panelist is Ms. Tanya Zaroubi.  She is going to do a presentation on digital government and she's going to present herself first.  Thank you.

>> Tanya:  I'm Tanya Zaroubi, head of the interoperability team and officer of the state for administration.  We are basically the entity that leads on digital government, of course with other stakeholders, with the prime minister's office and with other ministers and now my presentation will be about the digital government challenges we are facing in lobe none.

Next, please.

Of course the challenge is not just to introduce the digital technologies into the government, just silos or islands, which in many instances it is taking place in our government and in other governments.  The challenge is just to reorganize themselves around user expectations, needs, and associated requirements, rather than their own internal logic and needs.  We need to work as teams.  We need to work together.  We need to exchange data.  We need to collaborate and we need to work towards one goal.  And this is the digital government challenge we are facing and I'm sure everybody's facing.

Officer of the state for admin reform, we organize the first digital government conference in Lebanon in May 2017.  Second conference will be in March 2018.  Now, this conference was under the auspices and the patterns of the prime minister Sarada Harini where our minister, she recommend 11 digital government recommendations.  In this we are trying to follow in all our projects and in deploying.

Our path and goal is all based on those recommendations.  The first one, of course, is common portal where all the Lebanese or nonLebanese enter the government institutions through one common portal, which is the company registration through interoperable platform.  This is the new project that is based on IGIS of Lebanon where of course it also has its own policies and strategies and it's all ‑‑ the data structure and all that is being incorporated into the this project.

The second recommendation is much of the skills, the specialist who will have authority across all the ministries.  The open source technology we are advocating the open source technology.  Shared services through this portal we are also promoting to have shared services such as E payment, such as proof of identity.  There are many services that all the government agencies can benefit from.  Of course ecosystem where we all should be working together.  Innovation, agility, legal framework, has to work with the legal framework because all the legal statements and all the ‑‑ the lowest to be change really take time so we are trying to work hard by avoiding to change those goals but to work with them to promote the digital government procurement.  We're trying to change the way we do procurement because procurement is taking a lot of time into getting projects to be implemented.  Of course security is our top priority and infrastructure with the help of Azure and other institutions we need to collaborate together.  All this is going to be based on digital architecture where we will have a digital identity platform.

In the first project we are going to implement which is the commercial ‑‑ the company registration through interoperable platform.  A service provisioning platform where it will also have the catalog of services.  Billing and payment.  It's going to operate all the services but it's not going to incorporate the E payment.  E payment will be a better responsibility of the ministry of finance.  We also have the E services platform.  Most of the work is going to be through E services to reach the customer and of course interoperability component whereby the stakeholders will start sharing data among each other and this first project will have ‑‑ the main three stakeholders will be the ministry of justice where we have the commercial register, ministry of finance where we have the tax and the ministry of labor where we have the social security fund.

To implement the digital implementation with this commercial registration, like I said, the stakeholders are the ministry of justice, finance, and labor and we have launched the project on December 13 and I invite everyone to visit our Web site, which is WWW.Amsar.AB, see what the project is going to be all about.

Digital government enablers, the connectivity, we will be embarking on connectivity projects but of course through Azure or through the ministry of Telecom and through other ministries who are already ready to supply us with that like the ministry of finance.  Like I said the legal framework is being worked on last but not least the administration willingness where we can always have this resistance to change or who is the owner of the data or who is the owner of this project and whether they really would like to cooperate together.

Thank you.


>> Antoine:  Thank you for your presentation about the digital government.  Next I would like to invite Ms. Sala Yamuot to present on Lebanon ISP.  Please, I invite you to ‑‑

>> Salam:  Thank you.  Good afternoon.  I am not going to be very lengthy because there are still people that need to talk and we'd like to have more interaction with the audience.  I'm director for Internet Society.  Before that I was with the government of Lebanon.  What we have done last year is I can came to ‑‑ with ISOC and met with the minister of Telecom and director intelligence and we have an Internet exchange now pretty much working in Lebanon but we wanted to take it to the next level but having general with the other operators at the exchange point and together the ministry representative of the ISPs, we came together with the new formula to work on the Internet exchange point that you're going to call Lebanon.  Basically going to be an NGO where it's going to have participation from the members of the IX and with oversight from the ministry and also be appearing with us.  Why is Internet exchange point important:  Traffic between two Internet service providers goes to London and comes back every time an exchange between the two.  If you are appearing with ‑‑ if you are ‑‑ e‑mail going from CTL to Azure, yes, the traffic will go outside and come back most of the time.  It's better to keep the traffic local and the culture of an Internet exchange point is one that makes data centers go around it to have content providers like Google, Netflix, and universities like AEB, ASG, hospitals, anybody, newspapers, even has contact that would like to come closer to the Internet exchange point so they have less delay and less cost to eyeball the customer.  I just wanted to tell you we're working together as Tanya has said before in Lebanon.  This is a really very great beginning because this is how we're going to be accomplishing more stuff.  Thank you.

>> Antoine:  Now I'd like to invite Sabanin.

>> Sabanin:  Thank you I am an executive director for Mahat, media organization that focuses its work on media development and freedom of expression in Lebanon.  I will be talking about Lebanon IGF new initiative in Lebanon and it's a result of a call for the ministry of information, ministry of telecommunication in Lebanon few months ago when they showed interest in IGF and called for the formation of Lebanese MAG that we look at it as a Civil Society group who advocate and with other Civil Society group for open‑ended transfer and to process for Internet governance in Lebanon.  We saw it as indicator for political world and good opportunity to start an open and transport Lebanon regarding Internet governance related issues.  Why such initiative is really important and needed in Lebanon?  Because it's equally important to debate issues at the national level with the participation of government, private sector, Civil Society, academia, and technical community.  Need to create an open register called in Lebanon to discuss economic impact of the Internet and its governance mechanism.  The Lebanon IGF emanated from the need to govern stakeholders in one place to discuss the state necessities and emerging Internet related issues in Lebanon.  Three different stakeholder groups have been active in their own feeds, affected expertise but there has been a lack of stakeholder collaboration and absence of a bottom up process.  Lebanon IGF intends to learn from best practices from the global IGF and.  Call all actors to actively participate in the process.  What is the situation out here.  Situation around IGF so after the call of the ministry of telecommunication for nomination they received 25 nomination from different stakeholder.  Now running the secretary of the Lebanese MAG and will not be presenting all the numbers of the MAG but a look into the number will show you there is a lot of expertise inside the MAG from private sector, we have big companies like Microsoft or SYCO, ISOC, Mahat, Max, and other organization.  Also we have from public sector ministries and public administrations they should have implemented very good project through the E governance in Lebanon.  And we have really a core group of experts that say if really a situation will allow they can really put foundation for a very successive that we are aiming to ‑‑ it's chapter in the spring of 2018 so to prepare for this first Lebanon IGF Lebanese magazine two weeks ago ‑‑ it would be when general director and members of the MAG trying to engage with the young and university and also with the media to explain to call for more participation and engagement in the next activities this they pressure Lebanese IGF.  And also what's like important as a group or Lebanese as a magazine developed like three objectives be working onto ensure openness and transparency of the Lebanese IGF.  First we will be working on engaging the community in discussing governance issues and of course MAG will ensure facilitating in the multistakeholder, they are between different bodies dealing with the Internet to share expertise and best practices and to identify common grounds and will be working also on the importance of the role of Internet in developing sustainable development goals.  So we have a lot of work to do but also we are very enthusiastic to work on this project and really interested in the number of the MAG show how much dinner stakeholder waiting for such initiative.  We hope that we will be joining effort to have like first edition of Lebanon IGF successor for one and that can be really a model for our version local chapter in the and look also to international dialogue and thank you very much.


>> Antoine:  Thank you for your presentation.  Now I'd like to invite Dr. Nicolas Ruohana, presentation on financing and innovation.

>> Nicolas:  Thank you, Antoine.  I'm Nicholas Rouhana.  I'm new to IGF.  First time I can um to IGF.  If there's one thing I have heard over these two years, today is multistakeholder.  I have to give back and say first of all thank you for putting this multistakeholder panel together so it shows the multistakeholders of the Lebanon delegation.  Thank you again.  Maybe you know or don't know, she brought baklava with her.  In order to get it you have to stay until the end.  I'm standing between you and the baklava.  Doesn't mean you don't have to ask questions.  You can still have the baklava.  Another incentive to come back to that in a while.  I'm the Vice President of ISOC and president is Gabby.  My job is I am fund of the VC fund.  Fund startups or innovations, I can give some thoughts about technology and innovation either through my work or through what I do as well within ISOC.

Two slides on ISOC Lebanon chapter.  We're the multistakeholder organization.  Founded years ago.  Twelve board members.  Election, we have more than 750 members, 755 yesterday.  And counting.  It is all registered on the platform.  Encourage to you go on I sock.org and encourage you to go look what happens.  Very happy for the former president of ISOC just got can inducted into the haul of fame.  Very proud of this achievement from Lebanon.

A few key focus areas on ISOC Lebanon.  Broadband obviously IP6, follow the trains, ISP and ISO for efforts for the ‑‑ started in December 2007.  Ten years of operations and counting.  Thanks for the support.  Now it's time to get it to another level.  Getting hopefully Azure and other members on board.  Obviously innovation entrepreneurship is one of the key aspects of our operation.  That's why we created what is called the INF.  If you watch mission impossible.  It's the Internet measured force.  We have for our members mentors that go and follow entrepreneurship and I will explain that.  We have ‑‑ the intercommunity nodes when ISOC turn 25.  We're among the full data 24 hours.  So I would ‑‑ I'm going to take a selfie with you guys.  Please do the same.  Come on.  Raise hands.  Or no baklava.  Thank you.

So, yeah, I will take the innovation of Lebanon.  If you follow the landscape, timeline of financing innovation in Lebanon, everything was pretty quiet preAugust 2013.  One morning in 20131 guy made a difference in Lebanon which is the central banks government.  After Lebanon ‑‑ the only thing saving Lebanon is the Internet.  Internet is the Lebanese pound.  And tons of liquidity sitting either in the bank and banks usually give loans and loans is not typical way of financing startups as you might know.  What happened is after being with the governor central bank at the time there was minister of Telecom was part of the lobby is to unleash some of this item to the knowledge economy, to the startups subtle system.  Allowed the bank ‑‑ go to Lebanon and everything learn about there's ‑‑ C31.  When you go to the entrepreneurship system in Lebanon this is the following.  It allows the bank two to 3 percent and now it's 4 percent of their capital to inject in startups and invest in startups, take equity.  Aggregate, if you count all aggregate all the banks it unleashes half a billion dollars of money to the ecosystem overnight.  Like a half a billion.  When I talk about the leap frog it's overnight unleashing half a billion dollar in the ecosystem.  On top of that central bank see 75 percent of these investments.  The risk of the bank is like 25 percent and over and above the second carrot from the central bank is they give 2 percent of the upside to the banks.  Not just taking 75 percent of the risk and 75 percent of the receipts.  They get to the banks more ‑‑ it's like a no‑brainer for the banks to go into this manage economy on new feed.  It's a new feed by the way because ‑‑ do you want know how to take risks and equity.  What happened is lots of funds were created.  Should look at the slide.  All of those were not there two years ago.  This is like really ‑‑ all of this appeared over the last two, three years.  We have P accelerators.  We have accelerators.  Five or six funds where like $70 million and tickets range from one to $5 million and we have programs, not just programs funded under this.  And this is only to use half a billion dollars of money.  The circles outside even much more programs that were created satellite to these programs.  For example a capital I manage, 13 million‑dollar outside ‑‑ even more money coming into this ecosystem.  ISME 13 million‑dollar fund from World Bank managed by Falad, pumping more cash in the ecosystem.  And you have other programs, again, such as accelerators and funded through either programs that appeared.  We now have angel groups.  No angel activity in Lebanon until we committed and managed angel groups.  Business angels very important part of funding start‑up.  Comes as early stage.  Culture as was missing.  So we secreted and built capacity for angel groups now running three, one of which women only.  Twenty‑five women angel group investing only in women and put together 400,000 and Salam.  She's one of these.  Lebanon angel fund.  Another group is another angel group.  All of this is to tell you that really it is happening in the ecosystem nowadays.  Go through all the locals obviously.  Slide next.  Again, other activities start‑up, this is something that's going on all over the country.  Literally in bay route or all over the republic none, all these activities are going on to create flow and get these entrepreneurs to innovate their startups and get funding through this ecosystem that I described for you.

The media is following.  You don't open up any magazine or don't read about any new startups, new accelerators.  Crazy every day or month or week there's something happening, an event or start‑up or fund that is greater or success story that is out there.  Very happening.  I think this is the last slide.  Go ahead, please now there's more capital than there are opportunity.  Really all the funds are not competing to get ‑‑ I invite to you come to Lebanon and start‑up and enterprise.  Lebanese expats, they are coming back to start up their businesses in Lebanon because funny enough it's easier to get funding in Lebanon than it is outside Lebanon, even in Europe or Silicon Valley.  I will leave you with these parting thoughts.  Thank you very much.


>> Antoine:  Now I invite you if you have questions.

>> (Away from microphone).

>> Audience:  My question to Roula, I just want to ask about if is there is presentation for an ecosystem in such a very important with regard to development of the Internet.  In an ecosystem people will share the same values and work very hard to develop other aspects of the Internet.  Now, my question focus on Civil Society.  For corporation of the government, there are ‑‑ question in Lebanon.  How do you deal with all that and what kind of difficulties you are facing in this work.

>> Roula:  As I mentioned in my intervention, I said we welcomed initiative of the ministry of telecommunication and we found an opportunity for us to really start working together.  At some point you have to use multistakeholder approach to start like sitting on the same table and trying to like exchange, try to come with solution in order to impact 40C we are working on focusing and we try to make a difference.  How can we make a difference if we don't really link our work to the public ‑‑ making of public policy and we cannot do it alone.  We have effort and really try this time try a multistakeholder approach.  Government and other stakeholder to see how we can all advance.  I think the first chapter, opportunity not only talk about the challenges but also to talk about best practices and lessons learned.  It will be a opportunity for like exchanging and learning together.  We will be ‑‑ I see from my experience until now with the core group that for now very good expertise and good way.  Let's try because really at some point we need to try other alternatives than trying to only like be statements and designing some advocacy work alone.  Let's try.

>> UnIdentified Speaker:  Can I jump in?  So in Lebanon I know we decided ‑‑ we're not nagging anymore.  We're just working.  As Ruola said we're going to try and work together so in a positive attitude.

The rule of Civil Society it has been my experience as a region as a whole, government of the region seems to be more worried about control than they are about growth and development.  So I think this is a Civil Society's role to just bring to the attention of the government that control understand, yes, but something more important for control for our children to find jobs, to eat good food, go to good schools.  It's growth and development and that role I think to bring to that attention to the government.

>> I think we have enough time for another question before going back to Dr. Rouhana to see if we can release the sweets.

>> UnIdentified Speaker:  We can have a hash tag.

>> My name is Zibil, director of the Internet authority.  Very happy to be with you today.  So ‑‑ well, I think that this automatic transcript is really, really out of ‑‑ anyhow.  So well, first of all, I congratulate you for all your ambitious projects.  I think you are ‑‑ well, on the right track.  I would suggest that, you know, it is ‑‑ it would be a good opportunity if both countries could work together on some issues.  I think this is a critical project between ISPs.  At the regional level, for us to get better resiliency, better pricing for international bandwidth and provide better prices for our users.  On the other side I think the intervention of Dr. Rouhan was magnificent.  He put the funding issue of investors and of talents and of startups is a critical issue and I think that it's a great insight it is not well‑known.  I think you need to suggest to really promote this and make more knowledge and highlight on this.  This is simply great.  And I think you need to be really grateful for the governor of your central bank for approving.  He is well‑known for being a good person.  This is just a confirmation for that.  But very quickly I have one question, please.  What's the current usage of international bandwidth?  Aggregate bandwidth?  Private ISPs, I don't know if you have government SPs, by the way, but the overall total aggregated band width, not available capacity.

>> UnIdentified Speaker:  I don't have exactly the figures.  I know we have 160 gigabyte of capacity.  I think we are using 120 or sorry.

>> UnIdentified Speaker:  120?

>> UnIdentified Speaker:  Yes.

>> UnIdentified Speaker:  How many Internet subscribers.



>> UnIdentified Speaker:  Subscriptions we have something like more or less 650 because there are some connected so we don't know exactly the figures but I think something around ‑‑

>> UnIdentified Speaker:  Don't forget mobile broadband.  600,000 I think he's talking about only the fixed cable but now almost ‑‑

>> UnIdentified Speaker:  I really would suggest offline after this session we make some contacts, talk about the possibility of ‑‑ everyone today talks about (audio cutting out).

>> UnIdentified Speaker:  Which do not need huge programs.  Talking between neighboring countries which have a lot of communication connections but yes this is true.  The strategic project is important and I recognize this.

>> UnIdentified Speaker:  We have to talk about it.  There's a technical error we're going to be talking about politics to the political people.

>> Antoine:  One more quick question.

>> I would like to congratulate Dr. Rouhana.  I think that's something we could use in certain countries in Europe also because that's ‑‑ not because we don't have capital but we don't have a structured systematic approach for really providing funding capital to small startups and developers.  So very much agree this is an edge that Lebanon has and some kind of DNA.  On the other hand I think that one underestimates today the importance of infrastructure.  Especially when you bring the ‑‑ community which lives on top of community, you also really need a basic, good infrastructure.  Underestimated today.  Underestimated in electricity and traffic and everywhere.  What happens when ‑‑ let's say the technological development gives a mess and it meets both in mobile lines ‑‑ to just catch one other countries here.  Give an example, the last week here in Zurich, we can summarize we looked for the next generation of mobile connectivity and we had environment mobile speeds of 3.2 gigabyte per second and 1.2 seconds of latency with little latency is important cars drive driverless, et cetera.  If you do not invest in this in both, it's either mobile or fixed then at the end you will have a perfect business community that strikes open let's say)?  (and it's necessary I don't think you forget that.

>> UnIdentified Speaker:  I will jump in.  Discussed the CC1 circular.  Now this is what we talk about but there's another number which is not far away but fourth one from Telecom which is ‑‑ I think we should revisit this.  That's why when we went to the center we said ‑‑ it's not hard to remember the fourth one which is the ‑‑ law has been for in ages needs to be updated and unleashed.  

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