IGF 2017 - Day 3 - Room XXIII - DC on Accessibility and Disability


The following are the outputs of the real-time captioning taken during the Twelfth Annual Meeting of the Internet Governance Forum (IGF) in Geneva, Switzerland, from 17 to 21 December 2017. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid to understanding the proceedings at the event, but should not be treated as an authoritative record. 



>> ANDREA SAKS: Good afternoon, everybody. 

I'm Andrea Saks, I'm the coordinator for the Dynamic Coalition on Accessibility and Disability.  I welcome you to our live meeting.  We have members here, and I see a few faces that I don't know. 

There is a sign‑up sheet that will be passed around.  If you would put your name, email on it, that would be great so we can put you on the list.  If you don't want to be on the list, don't give me your email and we're fine.  We'll welcome new members if possible.

I have to get the Agenda.  The Agenda is up on the board.  You see we have split the screen so you can see the captioning.  This is a meeting to talk about many things, and also it is really important, and what I would like the group to think about before we come to it, is how you found accessibility in the IGF, these buildings and to comfort, tell us what you think could be better or what was good.  Whatever happens.

We're going to start with the review of the accessibility of IGF, 2017.  We did have a remote participation experience, and we want to talk about WebEx as a remote tool and want to talk about also the timing of the sessions.

Before we came, we requested that there would be time ‑‑ many of the people that participate remotely have disabilities that make it difficult for them to participate remotely.  If they have vision impairments or blind, it is difficult to navigate remote participation tools. 

I will make some comments from my observation, but I would like to start with anybody on the floor that would like to say something about the remote participation that we have had or do I have to do it?  Anyone online ‑‑ is Gerry online?

A thing we found ‑‑ I'll do it ‑‑ a thing we found about remote participation, and I have had a conversation with our Secretariat Chengetai Masango that we're going to meet early next year to try and do something better was that blind people ‑‑ persons that were blind could not access WebEx.  It was very, very difficult, and we did have one that manage to get on towards the end of the second meeting on web accessibility and disability.  I'm not sure I have right name of ‑‑

>> The Internet of Things.

>> ANDREA SAKS: The Internet of Things.

We have come to the conclusion that unless WebEx changes their design, we can't rely on it and we're going to suggest that other possibilities be explored. 

Many people have mentioned the new technology ‑‑ at least it was new to me ‑‑ called Zoom, and much to my surprise when I investigated Zoom with the ITU Deputy Secretary‑General we discovered our technical department in the ITU‑T ‑‑ which is where I do a lot of my work ‑‑ was actually testing it.  And many other people here at the meetings here have mentioned Zoom.  That's one consideration.  We would like other people to make suggestions, if possible, because blind persons with disabilities have to be able to find it easy to use.  All of the remote participation tools have difficulty, but Zoom seems to pass the test on that one.

Anyone have any comments on what they would like to say on that particular aspect?

The lack of time for testing:  We have always required and asked for and need desperately because of the different access problems extra time in advance.  Also we need good rooms that have good visibility, and have the technology that's capable of being able to be accessible to the people who actually come and some colleagues have just come in and I'll go back, ask them if they have any comments because they have experienced some of the aspects of accessing what we call a remote participation tool.  Anyway, we didn't have that timing.  We were lucky, we had good guys that came in and really helped us, and we weren't too far off the mark.  We really need to have when we have Persons with Disabilities participating remotely, need extra time to deal with things, that we have at least a 10‑minute break before so we can set up and test the captioning, all of the equipment.

The captioning, I have got to say, it has been pretty good ‑‑ in fact, fantastic ‑‑ we have been working ‑‑ I have been working with Caption First for many years and they're amazing.  They have learned ‑‑ in my opinion ‑‑ all of the terminology that we use in the ITU.  I thought to the would be good to give them a plug.  They have been grit.  They're doing all of the captioning in all of the rooms and it is all being done remotely by people who are in United States, up in the middle of the night, listening to what you're saying and producing it on the screen.  Now, we had to go through a little procedure to be able to ‑‑ when we have one screen ‑‑ to be able to have the separation.  We really need two screens, even if we have a portable screen for visual situations because it is difficult for ‑‑ okay, we have so many lines, but it is nicer with a bigger screen with more lines, it is easier for everybody to read.  Before when somebody put up a presentation the captioning is obliterated, we don't want to see that and let the Secretariat Chengetai Masango know that to test that in advance.

Some of the people that just entered the room didn't hear the first part of what I was talking about.  That was the problems in using the remote participation tool which is WebEx.

Web Ex is donated to the IGF, they don't have to pay a licensing fee which is one of the reasons why it is used.  We have found that it is very difficult for persons with visual impairments to use it.  I wonder if any of the people in the room have any comments that just came in about that, and if they would like to comment, I would be delighted if they would.  I'm seeing a hand go for the mic.

When you go for the mic, would you introduce yourself by name, and if your name is a bit unusual, would you kindly spell it for the captioner.

Am I correct, you wish to speak?  You know it is you!  Go ahead.  Push the button.  You got it.

>> AUDIENCE: Microphone is on?

>> ANDREA SAKS: Say your name please.

>> AUDIENCE: We need a mic where if we click, there is sound and it is on.

>> ANDREA SAKS: Can you say your name please.

>> AUDIENCE: I come from Bangladesh, currently I'm working with the Prime Minister office as a national consultant on accessibility.  This is a bigger issue, streaming conference, online meeting, they just use the Web Ex which is complex for the visually impaired.  We're not able to maybe get.

Also maybe Skype is good, but it is not good enough for a big group discussion.

We need to identify some common solution for these tips of online meeting, either we visually impaired persons sometimes feel marginalized, not able to actively participate without any other people's help.

Thank you.

>> ANDREA SAKS: Thank you.

What I wanted to say, one of the most important things is that independence, and one of our participants in Ireland was asked well if anybody could help him get on.  He refused.  I don't blame him.  He wishes to be able to get on by himself, and why should he have to have help?  He should be able to get on when he wants.

Can we make sure that that mic is turned off?

Mohammed, would you like to speak as well.

>> MOHAMMAD SHABBIR: Thank you.  For the record.  This is Mohammad Shabbir.

Thank you very much, Chair, for the opportunity on the topic of online tool for the conversations or discussions on remote access.  I would also like to register my concern as a visually impaired participant and user that Web Ex is inaccessible.  There are two options before us, one that we talked to Web Ex guys and motivate them whether they could make this tool accessible for visually impaired screen reader users.  If not, then we have no option but to change the tool.  There are certain tools in the market like Internet Society, I'm also a member, Board of Director of ISOC's chapter, so we use zoom for online communications.  It is pretty accessible and gives control to the users and for visually ‑‑ being a visually impaired user, I participate in online meetings and it is pretty accessible.  We can also I think, Chair, and there's been some people to check its accessibility, so if Web Ex cannot be made accessible my recommendation would be to change that tool.

>> ANDREA SAKS: Thank you very much.

I have another speaker.  Would you like to get the mic ‑‑ can you get it close to your ‑‑ thank you.  Please give your name.

>> GLEN McKNIGHT:  Glen McKnight.  I'm with not for profit organization called Foundation for Building Sustainable Communities based in Oshawa, Ontario, Canada and Judith and I are working on ‑‑ Judith is Chair of technology issues and we have been champions with accessibility issues and we have done an analysis of different conferencing tools and a thing in the list is accessibility, zoom was high on the list, we'll share with the Committee the comparisons.

A year before that with IEEE, our Toronto section, we analyzed 22 different tools, some good, some bad, some ‑‑ just because there is a price, don't assume you have to pay it.  They oftentimes have an educational, not‑for‑profit pricing.  They're looking to helping the community.  If they come back, oh, gosh, it is so expensive and explain what it is used for, more than likely they'll be quite cooperative.

>> ANDREA SAKS: Thank you very much.

Are there any other comments?  Okay.

Jerry is on!  Right!  Gerry Ellis, he's our member of D‑CAD and one of my best right‑hand guys and we fight all the time.  He's a wonderful guy.  Gerry, can you speak?  He doesn't have audio.  That's because he can't find it.  He doesn't have audio.

Can you ‑‑ Gerry, can you type and we'll read what you're saying?  You must ‑‑ if you can hear us, you must be gratified to hear what is being said that supports your view of Web Ex.  We'll ‑‑ Gerry is the individual who cannot participate remotely because of that.

Are we getting anything, Judith?  If he can hear, you don't have to type.

Anyway, he's listening.  If he has a comment, no matter where we are in the program, we'll get him in and ask him to see if he can get on with the audio because he managed the other day.

Okay.  Having said that, I have personally taken it on myself to have a meeting in the new year to discuss this and other ‑‑ the Secretariat Chengetai Masango ‑‑ I can never pronounce his last name ‑‑ everybody says it at the same time.  I can't hear it.  One person.

I can't read and pronounce well.  I have help.

We'll see if we can have a better, more accessible IGF next year taking that into consideration, also taking the rooms into consideration, taking the access of the fact that we need at least two screens, if anyone was in the meeting this morning, the great big round, wonderful room, what was that?  XXV‑II and the question was why do we have the Roman numerals, not numbers, and Gerry couldn't see why, that's above the door.  Maybe in the future, how we put this down like it is number 27 or it is number 28, that that goes in the program as well to make it more understandable.

Moving on, unless there is anyone else that would like to make a comment.  I don't like the sound of my own voice although I do talk a lot.  Put your hands up if you would like to speak.

We have other facilities, the registration process, online, on site, the physical accessibility of the venue.  Does anyone have comments about that?

As usual, I do.

Have you noticed that there was roadworks to the main entrance?  People that needed to have immediate access had a little trouble, and also there was a great amount of difficulty in getting a ‑‑ it came through in the end ‑‑ there was a lot of miscommunication on how we did this, to have a car available for certain Persons with Disabilities, temporary or permanent, to have a ride down.  It was not really written out that well.  It all came through in the end because it said a car can have access if it is registered.  When we got there we found out it had to be a taxi.  Fortunately, the person who I had designated to help me do this was a private taxi so it worked.  Clear instructions about how we access the venue for Persons with Disabilities has to be more graphic.  One of the things I wanted to show you here is that the ITU did a technical paper, it is in ‑‑ on the website, it is called ‑‑ don't worry about the wonderful letters STP/ACC part, that means it is guidelines for supporting remote participating in meetings.  We also did a couple of years ago and Francesci Cesa Bianchi who will raise her hand, speak in the mic and say hello, say 5 seconds of words


>> ANDREA SAKS: We later got the one that morphed into an ITU one, we'll revamp them, make them into one and the same one will apply to IGF that applies to ITU.  The second one we did was a technical paper on guidelines for accessible meetings.  We do have People with Disabilities attend Question 26, Question 28, ITU‑D, ITU‑R and we needed to have some kind of guidelines.  The turnover in staff is frequent these days and we have younger people coming in that need to learn how to handle this.  We have these, they're available online and we'll be able to direct you to those if, in fact, you need to have them.  They can be downloaded for free.  Somebody is telling me don't forget to say something about ‑‑ I'm bugged.  I'll look at that in a second.  If somebody is coming in, they came through on my WhatsApp.  I'll look at that in a second.  Just a minute.

Somebody is typing.  There is somebody listening in who is typing for me that has something to say.  When that's complete, I'll tell you what this is about.

Does anybody have any suggestions or comments.  How did you find the accessibility here for yourself?  You have to pull down the mic?  I'm putting you on the spot.

>> AUDIENCE: Let's see.  I actually thought it was better than previous years.  I haven't been to the IGF in a few years.

Yeah.  I think the conflict between security and being able to get more closely with the car, the signage, it is an older, confusing building.  Getting oriented, maybe online maps maybe or a bit of sketches online, on the website.  I don't recall having seen them there.

They were?  Then I didn't ‑‑ I didn't do that carefully.  Otherwise, I think for the ‑‑ yeah, it is ‑‑ I'll have to think more and maybe write it t it

>> ANDREA SAKS: Can I put you in charge of that, your views of that?  We did go through an experience getting you registered, didn't we?

>> AUDIENCE: Right.  Yeah.

>> ANDREA SAKS: The people are very nice.  Once they realize what's at stake and what we want to do, they accommodate, but we agree, we have to start the process sooner than later and get a procedure in place at the venue so that they know what to do.  Wouldn't you agree?

>> AUDIENCE: I would actually.  Andrea, I have a very different question if I may.


>> AUDIENCE: How long did we schedule for this Agenda item?  I'm just wondering how much of this we can do offline and collect some of this information and I'm really, really interested in the next Agenda item.  The future activities.

>> ANDREA SAKS: We're a rather democratic group and if you tell me to stop talking and go to the next item, I'll definitely accommodate you.

I want to make sure everybody had time to say.

The next Agenda item is the future of activities.  Okay.

I tell you what, you get the job of starting to ‑‑ was there a question?  Sorry.  Thank you for helping.

Go ahead.  Please.  Say the name first.

>> AUDIENCE: I'm from Bangladesh.  A challenge for visually impaired in a conference, we can't find the important people to meet.  You may be running in front of me and I cannot catch you.  This is a big challenge for the visually impaired people in such a big conference.  Believe me, I didn't meet many people here, maybe there is many, but unfortunately people are not seeing us.  Secondly, it is nearly impossible to explore by myself alone without anybody's help.  It is really ‑‑ in a conference like this, I can say not only here, but if we go to a conference on a State party on CRPD, same thing.  We saw many big people are running in front of us, we can't catch them.  We cannot run alone here and there.  We're not getting the information in the accessible format.  So conference should consider accessibility needs for people with visually disability, it is important.  I may not explore the Agenda of the conference as there is not a fully accessible format.

Thank you.

>> ANDREA SAKS: Do you have a suggestion on how we can do that?

I have some ideas, I want your suggestions please.

>> AUDIENCE: A suggestion, we can invent an application that will identify people.  I don't know.

I think we should send information to all participants that there are people with disabilities coming, they may want to meet with you and if you see them, say hello to them, and that's important.  Then we may get the people here.

Another way, if we get the information on who is coming in the conference, maybe other information can be shared for the visually impaired participants, that's one that we can know that some people are coming.  If we get the contact of them, then we can communicate with them maybe face‑to‑face interaction is not needed, any viral or eCommunication will ease the gap of accessing communication with the VIPs.

Thank you.

>> ANDREA SAKS: I see your hand.  Go ahead.

>> MOHAMMAD SHABBIR: A couple of suggestions to what's been raised on accessibility issues.

I noticed other issues also and I'll focus more on putting forward solutions because there are many views.  First thing first, if there is a conference organized at a venue, a thing organizers can do, they can give a list of accessibility features related to that building and it with be put online alongside the Agenda on the website.  I could not find if there was for this building or for this conference.

Related to the Agenda, I feel the Agenda was fairly accessible online.  It was accessible through computer.  I did not use the app.

Regarding other features, like we have certain tools here, there could be toolkits about the tools in the conference room for all the users.  I'm sure I'm not the only one notwithstanding the fact of visual impairment, many people may have had problems using these tools completely.  There are certain rooms, certain sessions where people may find difficult to change channels.  In certain rooms, certain conferences, there are screen focused just focus options on the screen so visually impaired people may have problems in using those tools.  If bringing or changing the tools completely accessible, although it should be the norm of the conference that the tools should be completely accessible, but if this is too much costly, it cannot be arranged, I know we're not ‑‑ we do not live in a perfect world, but what we can do is whatever accessibility features are available there this can be put in a toolkit and put online.  This can be promoted through different brochures, this can be mentioned even in the call for the conference that accessibility tools are available here and it is not a big deal I guess if someone takes that task.  For the record, this was Mohammad Shabbir from Pakistan.


I'll ask you ‑‑ both of you ‑‑ I'll say the name wrong again.

I'll ask you to put the comments down.  We have the captioning and Gerry's audio, it is okay.  We'll get him in here.  Sorry.  We'll get your ‑‑ if you can click or send an email, even if we have to do it in face time, you know exactly what you want.  I don't know if Francesci Cesa Bianchi ‑‑ go ahead and then we'll have Gerry.  

(Audio issue).

>> ANDREA SAKS: We did have one in Mexico.  There was an accessibility desk in Mexico.  I think it was a very good move.  I think that was the first time I had ever saw that with IGF.

You can ‑‑ hang on.  I want to get Gerry on before we lose him.

>> A thought on that, I think that's a great idea.  Would it also be an idea to have it be just a buddy program for people who are new to the IGF, not necessarily focused on accessibility, but new to the IGF and maybe some of the more veterans would actually volunteer.  We do that at our WTC technical plenary and we often have people sign up that want to be buddies and help orient people that are new.

>> ANDREA SAKS: We have a program where we suggest to the Secretariat Chengetai Masango to initiate a buddy program.

>> Yeah

>> ANDREA SAKS: That will go on the list.  I know you want to say something else to that, can you hold a minute?  We want to get Jerry on?  Can you come, speak?  Can you speak?

You have to listen to him this way.  If you want to hear Gerry, we have to hear him with the earphones.

Gerry, go ahead, please.

>> GERRY:  Can you hear me in the room?

>> ANDREA SAKS: Speak as loudly as you can, we can.

>> GERRY:  Can you hear me?

I'm in my office.  Thank you for letting me in.  I have been having big problems with accessing you remotely, the Web Ex tool is difficult to use.  We have already spoken about that.  We will take that up in January.

Accessibility this year, getting to and from the airport, to and from the venue (poor audio quality).

>> ANDREA SAKS: Are you asking a question, Gerry, that wants an answer?  We have poor audio quality.  About the airport?

I understood what he said.  That's not my question.

I think I heard him correctly.  I'm going to speak and hopefully I'll be able to come through.

That's another topic.  I arranged ‑‑ are you there, Gerry?  Please, go ahead.

We can't hear you very well.  Can you get really close to the mic?

>> GERRY:  (Poor audio quality).

>> ANDREA SAKS: Unfortunately, this is ‑‑

>> GERRY:  (Poor audio quality).

>> ANDREA SAKS: This is the problem with Web Ex, it just doesn't work.

Gerry, I'm sorry.  We're having trouble.  If there is a real key point that you wish to use or you wish us to talk about, would you kindly type it and then it will be spelled out.  There is somebody that wants to have a word.

Go ahead.

>> AUDIENCE: Yes, I'm Paul from Handicapped International.

If you take an iPhone and he just calls in and you have the iPhone on the table with a microphone, everybody could hear him.  So there is a solution possible.

>> ANDREA SAKS: We know that solution.

The problem is, he's in Ireland.  If he does that, it is only a U.K. number and it costs money.  That's the objection for him to do that.

Gerry actually withdrew from a workshop in protest because it was expected that he pay for that phone call.  There are other versions of Web Ex that have numbers for different countries, but it is not the one that was given to IGF to use.  He made a distinct protest that he should not have to pay to call a U.K. number to be able to hook into Web Ex.  I didn't know if I would get into that today.  We do know the solutions, but that was his ‑‑ he's worked very hard to try to get on to Web Ex.  So the situation is, even when he got on to Web Ex, it didn't work.

Use the mic if you're going to say what you're saying.

>> JUDITH HELLERSTEIN: This is Judith.

A thing is, apparently the people on remote can hear him.  It is just us who cannot hear him.

>> ANDREA SAKS: Okay.  That's another interesting aspect.  We're making notes on this with the captioning.

The people on remote could hear him.  Does that mean the captioner could hear him?  No.  Poor audio quality.

  I don't think so.  No, poor audio quality.  The captioner could not hear him.

Gerry has already written a critique.  We know it will go.  All of this information that you're giving me, it will be recorded.

Due to the time, I'm going to ‑‑ anybody else has anything they would like to add to this conversation?  There is a whole line of you over there that hasn't said anything.  I'm looking at all of you.  I see a smiling face.

Does anyone have any comments or contributions?  Everybody is laughing.  That's great.

I'm not that scary.  You have to raise your hand!

Shadi, I think we'll leave this topic and get on to future activities.

Let me read what's on here for the benefit of the people who cannot read the screen.

We have down first outcomes of the workshop on Universal Design and creating accessible global digital future that we organized and the Internet of Things and accessibility for people with disability organized by Genela and then we have the review of the DCAD paper also available at the IGF platform.

What do you want to focus on?  You have been jumping up and down quietly in your head and I have been watching.  Go ahead, we'll see if we can get that ‑‑ the desk is not accessible for you to get to the mic.

>> SHADI ABOU ZAHRA:  Yes.  Several of the desks are low and at a very nice height to get you right on your kneecap.

Anyway, yeah.  I didn't have particular or specifics in mind.  The idea is that I'm ‑‑ I haven't been to the IGF in several years.  It is good to be back.  It was really interesting discussions.  Maybe sometimes it is good to take a break here and there.  Maybe that's not going on record.  Too late!

I think particularly the session this morning where we had the other Dynamic Coalition moderated by Tonya, it mentioned that the Dynamic Coalition started off separately and now are becoming more mature in themselves having their communities and kind of growing up a little bit thinking of external outreach, there was a bit of that discussion not only inside but to outside communities.  I was thinking, it might actually be a really good time to also think about how we want to influence all these other Dynamic Coalitions.  The moderator Tonya had read all the reports from each of the Dynamic Coalitions, I hadn't ‑‑

>> ANDREA SAKS: I know that.

>> I hadn't read them all.

I think this might actually be quite an interesting exercise, just a suggestion for the discussion that we as a Dynamic Coalition, you know, for the coming period, read all these reports and try to set ourselves that we make comments or suggestions or recommendation to each of these Dynamic Coalitions of how they could better address accessibility, maybe even make offers of how to work with them together.  I don't mean just blanket things like, you know, consider people with disabilities but really taking it deeper, it might be a bit challenging to find expertise in all of the areas but I think we're a large community and we also have contacts outside in our even larger communities and if we divide the work I think we could really in the next months, in the next period, in the next year or something, by the time of the next IGF have made a leap forward in terms of being much more integrated.  Yeah, later maybe even thinking about the regional IGFs, so on, let's not ‑‑ let's just stay with one first and think about that.  How we can get accessibility as a topic, as a content topic more across.  Of course, those participation guidelines, they're really important.  I think we should give it to each, so that everybody is cognizant.  If they don't have members with disabilities in their coalitions, then they need to work more on that.  That's kind of a ‑‑ what do you call it ‑‑ a bridge, a helper, a tool where the goal is actually to really make the content, the output accessible, how to get there is these guidelines, but the actual thing is making them think about accessibility in all that they're developing.

>> ANDREA SAKS: Thank you.

Genella, would you like to make a comment, please?

>> Thank you, Andrea.

I totally support Shadi's suggestions.  I want to use the workshop I organized on the Internet of Things as a basis for maybe one way to move forward.  There is a Dynamic Coalition on the Internet of Things, so to organize a workshop where we're talking about a hot topic it in regards to technology and inviting the convener of the Dynamic Coalition of the Internet of Things to come and speak and to hear what people with disabilities have to say when it comes to particular applications that can help, in regard to new technologies in smart house, transport, et cetera, can be beneficial.

We know that disability is a cross‑cutting issue.  If we can move along those lines with a number of the other Dynamic Coalitions when it comes to gender, for example, and there is one on connecting the unconnected, children and so forth.

It is relevant in all of the different areas.  Maybe in the future we can look at organizing workshops that have a particular technology focus, Artificial Intelligence is something that would benefit People with Disabilities in a number of ways and involve people who are at the cutting edge of the technologies so that they understand what is needed in accessibility.

>> ANDREA SAKS: Thank you.  There is a couple of thoughts that race through my mind on how to do this.  A couple of people that have joined us, our conference calls, we caption them.  We do have access to ‑‑ we don't always have to use something like Adobe Connect, other conference tools that the ITU uses, ITU supports and gives a contribution ‑‑ they pay for the calls and pays for Secretariat and we have web space on the ITU webpage.  They sponsor the calls.  We discuss these things in the calls.  People can follow it through the captioning and also make comments in a chat box where if they can speak or they do not wish to speak, whatever.  In any case, we do that.  It is about five a year, isn't it, that we have?  DCAD ‑‑ about ‑‑ yeah.  No, we have four, five calls a year.  Yeah.

That's okay.  We like music!

That's all right!  I know it is a call to prayer but it is music in my mind!  Thank you.

I don't want to talk over that.  It is disrespectful.  Are you okay with that?

Okay.  Thank you.  I don't find that unattractive at all.

I have just gotten fractured in my elderly brain.  The other thing we have not talked about is elderly people.  All of you are very young in this room.  I'm the older citizen here.  There may be one with a gray beard over there that's sort of smiling at me.  We're all getting to a point where we'll need accessible features and accessibility is going to become more and more important.

One of the things I was thinking of doing was that in that meeting, we'll do an Agenda for the next meeting and do it by email.  For those of you that are not on, we put out the sign‑up sheet and you can join the Dynamic Coalition and participate in the calls.

Sorry, Judith, we have a comment?  A minute?  Who is it?

Diedre Williams, a Dynamic Coalition member from ‑‑ she's in St. Lucia I think.  Can we hear her or is she typing?

>> There is a comment, she says it is too Andrea Saks for her to speak up, but would like to have an information clearinghouse, she thinks it would be a useful activity for the DCAD.

>> ANDREA SAKS: I'm not sure what activity she wants.  Can she ‑‑

>> DIEDRE WILLIAMS:  An information clearinghouse.

So she wants one place for more accessibility documents on all different top it cans we'll discuss and have the DCAD be that clearinghouse for that.

>> ANDREA SAKS: We have a webpage, we post everything on a webpage.  We could very easily make a webpage to accommodate that.

Can we do that?  Can we make a webpage like this?  She's busy trying to keep us connected, she says yes.  Right.  Yeah.  We could do that, Deirdre.

We will post the comments that have been made and post this particular captioning record, we'll post the captioning record of Gunela's workshop and the DCAD workshop to read after that.  We'll have a page on that and it will be defined clearly so you can get into it.

The ITU supports and sponsors the webpages for the Dynamic Coalition.

Any other comments from Deirdre?  No.

Anyone else want to make a comment on ‑‑ great.  Yes.  Please push the button and give your name.

>> AUDIENCE:  I'm from Austria. 

I would like to raise the issue of proprietary tools and software in general.  It's bad for accessibility in general and I think that Web Ex is a great example of this.  Web Ex is from a vendor which is producing proprietary tool.  If you want to have this feature of accessibility built in, there is no way around than communicating with Web Ex, getting money for them, implementing that feature, but still they decide upon if accessibility is an issue or not.  You can't force them to make it able for everyone, and yeah.  If Web Ex would be Open Sourced for example, you could give someone money to implement accessibility features, and I think that's a very big issue that's not mentioned at all so far today or at this panel. 

One other thing I also want to mention is the DRM, Digital Right Management, in web browsers:  I think it is also bad for accessibility because it would mean for producers of accessibility tools that they need to fulfill the DRM requirements and people that built accessibility tools are often low on resources and they can't put the efforts in DRM.  It is basically a waste of their time.  Yeah.  Thank you.

>> ANDREA SAKS: Thank you.  I think that's wonderful what you have just said.  It is recorded and we're definitely going to make an emphasis on that.

Go ahead.  You have ‑‑ I can tell by the hairs on your eyebrows!

>> SHADI ABOU ZAHRA: That's what you get from long time working together.  We know each other well.

So first of all, on the first point, I completely agree.  I think standards like web RTC are helpful in creating open standards at the base and also on the tooling level that things could plug in.

With regard to DRM, however, regardless of my personal opinion on DRM, I should ‑‑ I work with the world consortium and we have looked at the accessibility questions very thoroughly.  We haven't been able to verify these.  We have a report on that online that I'm happy to share with you and we could take a look at that.

To my knowledge right now, there aren't these ‑‑ yeah.  The DRM, does not directly ‑‑ there were arguments that reduces access to assistive technologies or there were such claims made and we haven't been able to verify the claims and the report is available and I'll be happy to discuss with you.

>> ANDREA SAKS: Can I ask you, I couldn't quite get your name as well, what do the letters DRM stand for?

>> Sorry for the jargon, Digital Rights Management.

>> ANDREA SAKS: It was in the beginning, yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay.

>> ANDREA SAKS: Now I know it was DRM, it was said in the beginning but it didn't connect.  All right.  Yes, please, go ahead.  Say some more.

>> As my directory response, there was a talk at last year's communication Congress on a tool for recording HDMI video output from laptops for talks so we could with basically stream it.  This is one example where DRM is already breaking things basically because you can't record hdmi if there is DRM enabled, it is not possible technical. 

The whole idea behind DRM, this is only for visual, if you go to audio, like the example I want to take, it is not the case right now for DRM that it would ‑‑ that it does block accessibility and that it will probably for the future because people who can implement tools will become less and less because it is basically harder for them if there is more DRM involved, not only for video but for other things as well, for content in general.


>> ANDREA SAKS: If I understand correctly, because I'm learning all the time, DRM is restricting on the principle of rights, and therefore we have less accessibilities because of this idea of rights or is this to protect governments or what?  Chadi, please explain.

>> DRM is one of the ways in which ‑‑ a standardized way in which producers could control who has ‑‑ who can play back media.  Particularly I think a lot of the film and music producers who want to ensure that people who are consuming certain content are contributing to the production of it.  That's one way of looking at it.

The idea is that you can lock the media and you can say to you don't have rights to watch this content because you did not subscribe or whatever reasons, and this is, of course ‑‑ it makes sense that ‑‑ it actually goes even further.  There was a question whether this would prohibit for instance researchers from researching ways of providing the content in alternative ways for People with Disabilities for instance or if this would disproportionately impact People with Disabilities more than others.  These claims are being made in the name of accessibility.  We have taken them very seriously.  You know, there is something there.  We have looked at it.  When it really comes down to our understanding, locking, saying you don't have content not on the basis of a disability but on the basis that applies to all who fall in that category, not necessarily people with disabilities, and so we haven't been able to verify most of the claims that have been made.

>> ANDREA SAKS: Thank you for that.

I wasn't clear on that for sure.  Now I understand.  It is almost like a copyright issue.  That's kind of where it is.

We had a conversation ‑‑ there is a young lady in the back, I forgot your name, Mya, you and I had a conversation about this.  Do you want to add to that?  Very clear on explaining.

Get close to the mic, you have a soft voice.

>> MYA:  This is actually ‑‑ this is copyright related but it is an entirely different issue.  What we discussed doesn't really touch upon this.

But this whole DRM, it was ‑‑ it ended up being kind of a huge deal, like the standards, like ‑‑ and like the W3C, trying to reach an agreement on those and actually as I have understood it, the electronic frontier foundation ended up leaving the consortium because of the result of this debate.  It is not entirely ‑‑ it is not a small deal.  Yeah.  

>> ANDREA SAKS: Thank you, Mya.

Okay.  We have 5 minutes left.  We have covered number four.  I already showed you accessible guidelines that have been produced on accessible meetings.  Those we'll pursue and finish up and update in our subsequent meetings next year.

I'm going to come back to this.  I got a word in my brain 5 minutes and I just said I covered the other bit.  We can stay with this topic.  Okay.

>> AUDIENCE: We went off on a tangent on a specific topic. 

Maybe the better phrasing here is Open Source and interoperability.  I think this is something we can agree on.  We had a talk about that in the session on IoT accessibility here again, the interoperability is what is a big challenge to accessibility, if you can't access with custom‑made assistive technologies or Open Source software, if Fernando was here, I'm channeling a DCAD member with the Open Source tooling.  I think this is maybe without going into the specifics, but in general, the direction that is maybe something that could be one of our key points that we try to bring into other Dynamic Coalitions as well as something that's important to accessibility.

>> ANDREA SAKS: Since we're winding up, that's on the list as well.

We will produce a report of this meeting, and we will take an online vote if that's okay with everybody.  We will schedule a meeting in the new year and we don't have a date now.  We usually send everybody an email.  If you have given us your email address, we'll take it that you are interested.  If you want to join, let us know, we'll tell you how to do it.  We welcome anybody to join the Dynamic Coalition.  This is all about accessibility.  We have discovered that even though we're ‑‑ this is what we're supposed to be doing, and most of the time, what we do, we make it accessible for everybody to come to the venue and everybody to have access to the information.  We tend to be the people that the IGF Secretariat has come to rely on.  We're not only a Dynamic Coalition, we're the ‑‑ we're the A team, we make sure that you can get here, we make sure that you can have transportation, we make sure that you can access the information.  This needs to be taken up by the IGF in their own staff.  We need to examine whether or not ‑‑ and I think we're all in agreement, at least in DCAD that Web Ex is not the tool for us, but we will put that to the vote again by email and other tools that are being tested by the ITU, I'm told that we can share our results and we do have a representative from the ITU here, Mr. Jose and I'm making Claims that we'll do this in the ITU.  I wonder if you'll give a few comments about the fact that the ITU supports the Dynamic Coalition on Accessibility and disability.  Can you say a few words, please.

>> AUDIENCE: We have been supporting the Dynamic Coalition since the beginning.  We're happy that the Chair is Chairing one of our groups, the joint coordination activity in ITU, we have different groups looking at accessibility and Andrea is Chairing a coordination activity that is making sure we're coordinated.  We're very happy that precisely this function here is taken by Andrea, we can ensure we have good coordination and learn from each other.  I think we all agree that making mistakes is part of the innovation, we're happy when the mistakes are made, we're not so happy when the same mistakes are made over and over.  Learning from each other and reducing the amount of mistakes, new technologies is okay.  Technologies evolve and new tools, it is good to test and it is good to make sure that we are taking into account the Persons with Disabilities in ITU and Andrea has been challenging us, and this has helped us bring the message to our constituency that we have to invest in accessibility, the venue is more or less, the accessible for the people in wheelchair is normally fine but now the challenge is on accessible meeting, documents, it is a moving target.  We'll never have full accessibility, it is something that we have to continue working.  In ITU we put together a policy endorsed by our council, governing body, giving the Secretariat a strong tool to continue to push and allocating budget and making as many meetings possible and accessible, and this year, it is a moving target and we're working on this and happy to share the experiences with the IGF, we continue to make progress and a few days ago we launched a series of publications on accessible by design by the beginnings and if you go to ITU/accessibility you can find all of the work.

I'm not saying we're perfect, we still need a lot to do and we're also looking at the experience of the IGF to improve our process.  In the years I have seen improvement but the challenges, the new challenge is also, but it is a moving target and we work together to make sure we make all of our meeting services accessible and also that we are sure that ICTs stay accessible for persons with be disabilities, highlighting that we need to look at ICT standards, Internet standards, interoperability so it is not just about having meeting accessible but ensuring that ICT and the Internet is accessible for People with Disabilities.  That's another part of ‑‑ we're happy to see that being discussed in this group.  Thank you.

>> ANDREA SAKS: Please, you haven't spoken yet.

We'll give you ‑‑ we'll go over, don't worry.  Go ahead.

>> My name is Miralda from the international Federation of Library Associations, IFLA for short.

I just wanted to reiterate that we're working on ‑‑ in the area of copyright after the Marrakech Treaty quite aggressively.  It is a long way.  It is a lot of meetings in WIPO, other places similar to WIPO.  If we can be of any help, I put my name there and please feel free to reach me.  This is not really my area of expertise.  I have a colleague and I'm speaking on her behalf that does all of this work on copyright.  We would be glad to help in any way.

This is also to speak about the work of the DCs and the fact that most of the time they really overlap or one can complete the other in different ways.  Just to ‑‑ I would ‑‑ we would be glad to be part of it.

>> ANDREA SAKS: Thank you.

I welcome your expertise and help tremendously.

I will say thank you in sign language.  We'll cover sign language next time.  We haven't had a request for it yet.  But it is coming.  That's another can of worms.  Sign language is an expensive accessibility tool because it involves human beings and we need two of them for each language in every country.  If they all turn up, we're broke.  The thing is, that's another issue that I was going to talk about, but I'll put that in the heads for the future.

I want to say ‑‑ we have one more?  Do we ‑‑ oh.  All right.  I'll give you one minute and then we have to close.

Get close to the mic and assay your name.

>> AUDIENCE:  This is Irene from Bangladesh. 

One research survey says that 15% of the Bangladesh populations are going through some disabilities and accessibility issues actually.  Coming from that country actually I feel that such developed countries are giving little privilege, at least they're thinking of disabled people.  Yes, Bangladesh is trying to give facilities now.  It is a lot of innovations related to software or hardware which can support visually impaired people to have their daily life made easier.  Coming back to IGF, in the IGF daily Agenda it was upsetting to me that I haven't seen much more discussions related to, you know, the disabled people or the visually impaired.  But this Agenda is, you know, covering the gap, very positively, one thing I would like to make a comment, that we may welcome next time more and more Agendas in the daily routine on accessible apps or softwares.  That will help to brainstorm, what would be the new technology, what is the technological gap to improve for the people who are disabled or visually impaired.

Thank you very much

>> ANDREA SAKS: Guess who is in charge of that one!  You!  I want to get your name!  You can help me with that.  It is very important to you.  Is that a deal?

>> AUDIENCE: Yeah.  Actually in my country we have a community as well, and we're trying to develop some ideas that's related to software and hardware as well, how to implement

>> ANDREA SAKS: Sorry to cut you short.  Yes, we'll talk.

I want to say thank you to everybody.  We have to close because the next group is on.

I want to say thank you for a really good interactive meeting.  I'm so happy that a lot of you started to speak.  Speak earlier next time!