FINISHED TRANSCRIPT
EIGHTH INTERNET GOVERNANCE FORUM
BALI
BUILDING BRIDGES - ENHANCING MULTI-STAKEHOLDER COOPERATION
FOR GROWTH AND SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT
24 OCTOBER, 2013
14:30
No. 62
THE 7TH MEETING OF THE DYNAMIC COALITION
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This transcript is being provided in a rough-draft
format. Communication Access Realtime Translation (CART) or
captioning are provided in order to facilitate communication
accessibility and may not be a totally verbatim record of
the proceedings.
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>> Hello. This is Room 3, can our participants hear us?
Can Becca hear us?
Maybe if so, you can send me a text message.
Hello to Becca, can you talk?
>> Anjan, we need you back.
>> ANJAN BOSE: Good afternoon, everyone. I think we are ready to
start now. Just the logistics of passing on the presentations. Just
bear with us one minute and we will start.
(Break)
>> ANJAN BOSE: Good afternoon, once again. And welcome to the 7th
version of our Dynamic Coalition and there are lots of known faces
around the room and a few new members.
My name is Anjan Bose, I'm with ECPAT International. Just a quick
update about why we are here. This is a permanent platform that we
have managed to secure to advance our work at this very big policy
discussions that is happening. On Internet Governance, and this brings
us space to bring the child protection and the Internet issues with a
much higher and global audience.
Usually we go around the room and introduce each other, but we
decided not to do it this time because everybody knows each other.
But having said that, I will take the liberty to introduce three of
our new members. We have over there at the back, please, if you can
raise your hand, at the representatives from the Elena and Madeline
Foundation and they're represented by Judith -- I don't know if I
pronounce your last name, is it Mocumbo?
Sorry, I got the -- the spelling is not very clear here. And the
general manager for programmes, Fiona McIntosh, and the cyber safety
specialist, Jeremy Blackman. They're a new member to our coalition.
They have just joined. We have a representative from disk foundation
who is proudly attending another workshop at the same time. I just
forgot to mention.
We have a few members who are missing from the room today. That's
because of the scheduling of IGF didn't allow this participation, you
know, because there is another cyber child and youth participation
workshop happening, which they are either panelists or need to attend.
So it's a pity, but that's how it is.
Having said that, I would give you a very, very quick introduction of
what we are going to do for this session today. Unlike previous years
where we do a lot of information sharing, information exchange, sharing
good practices and initiative, which we still try to allude to at the
beginning in terms of what our members do and see as challenge through
the course of their work; this year we have decided to focus on child
sexual abuse materials. And why did we do that?
How we are going to -- what we are going to do, I will allow Mr. John
Car, who you all know is the leading expert on child online abuse
issue -- and he has joined ECPAT International as our global advisor on
child online safety. And he will lead that session on what we want to
do on child sexual abuse materials and how -- what are our propositions
in terms of indicators, what we need to get. It will be an open
discussion.
Leading to that as a prop that leads us to that discussion we have
three presentations today. On my left, I just want to introduce you to
the panelists. We have Susie Hargreaves, from the Internet watch
foundation, we have Mr. Russell Chadwick from In Hope, and on my right,
Linda Chadwick from -- who's based in Singapore. A paper -- a segment
of -- in a specific version of appointment. And she will -- they will
be presenting their work in relation to child sexual abuse as that fits
in the context of our core discussions today.
But as I said today, I just wanted to give you a glimpse of what our
members are doing, we have a diverse set of membership. So some of
them are in education and awareness, particularly the ones -- we have
Navine Tewfik from ministry of ICT in Egypt, and Navine has been very
much engaged from the beginning with the coalition in terms of
education and awareness and in terms of policy, and also within the
Arab region, a lot of legal reform work.
And talking of Navine, I want to introduce another new member.
Eitesal NGO, a national representative of the Egyptian committee
represented by Mr. Hassan El Gamal, who is not here today but is a new
member. What this diverse set of people bring to the table is a
research of experience and resources that every member from different
region can benefit from. And we are not going to delve into what each
one of us are doing, but in summary, the key areas of work are online
safety, resources for work, child participation, education and
awareness, and also working at legal reform project, working with
ministries, and both regional and international levels.
So it's a cross-cutting platform. We do have representation from the
industry -- we have in house -- I'm sorry, IWF and also from GSMA, who
is not able to come here today.
Finally, I would just like to give the floor very briefly from
Preetam from ITU, who is also one of our members, ITU is a member of
the Dynamic Coalition, very briefly to present what they're doing in
terms of the COP guidelines for industries. I will just pull up the
slide and if Preetam -- yes. And my apologies for missing out
Jacqueline and Kim, who are very much in forefront, are representing
Microsoft. And I do beg your apologies for omitting you from the
industry partners. My apologies.
Am I missing anyone who is here who is a regular?
And then Jutta Kroll is here. I'm looking, but I have a very long
side. So Jutta is here, one of our founder members representing
Digitale -- I can never pronounce the full name in German. It's -- she
does a lot of work with young people, giving them empowerment and
access in Germany. That's the kind of strength that we have, the
diversity of our members.
So Preetam, if you would like to say a couple of words, I can pull up
the slides.
>> PREETAM MALOOR: Not to scare you, there will be just one slide.
Before I do that, I want to thank Anjan for inviting us. My colleague
Karla is the one who works on this topic. I'm sure most of you know
her. If you -- please pass on your cards if you need to get in touch
with her. I will make sure that...
Specifically on the guidelines, of course you might know that in 2009
ITU working with the COP partners released a set of guidelines, for
children, guidance and educators, for industry and policy-makers.
And this year working with child protection, a group of member,
multistakeholder group including all core partner, decided it's time
for the industry guidelines to be updated. Since 2009 the world has
moved quite a bit. Technologies have changed. Access to technologies
have changed, ideas have changed.
So since the beginning of this year, ITU with the core partners have
been working on revising the guidelines. And we are particularly
grateful to union self in this regard because they have taken the lead
in the editorship of this new revised guideline. We've gone through
multiple set of iterations. I think many in this room have
contributed. We are grateful to them. Right now we are at a stage
where we have a draft guideline that we now require multistakeholder
input. And the open forum we had this morning, the ITU -- one step in
the multistakeholder input and we are thankful for the input we
received. We put the guidelines on line and you will see the link
there.
And it will be -- tonight it will also be directly accessible from
the ITU and UNICEF website. UNICEF.org -- we thank you for making the
guidelines much better and useful to all of you.
>> ANJAN BOSE: Thank you, Preetam. That is a wrap-up of the session
they had this morning. That was more of like an update from our
general member sections. I would be very happy if you can take the --
you know, outside of this forum after we finish, to keep in touch and
to share the resources and connect with each other on a continuous
basis as a platform for sharing information. Because we only meet once
a year.
At this forum. We should be using the online platforms of other
channels of communication to keep our interactions going. With that
said, I'd just like to open the presentation section for today. As I
said before, we have three presentation, all reeled to in some ways,
the element of child -- combatting child sexual abuse materials online.
And my first speaker is Russell Chadwick from InHope who is going to
give you overall umbrella understanding of how do they see the problem,
what kind of reports are emerging, and the trends.
So without further ado I pass the floor to you, Russell.
>> RUSSELL CHADWICK: Good afternoon, everybody. And I would like to
say thank you to ECPAT for giving me the opportunity to speak.
For those of you who don't know what InHope do, I put together some
slides which will outline the work of the association, and also give
you some information on what we provide to our stakeholders which is
law enforcement. So who we are. We were founded in 1999, in the safe
Internet programme to combat child sexual abuse material. And we're an
umbrella organisation, we represent 44 hotlines and 38 countries. And
head quarters is in Amsterdam, even though I'm based in the U.K. and I
travel over to Brussels and Amsterdam on an annual basis. We're
co-funded through our membership -- what do we do?
We support and then house the performance of the hotlines. So we try
and share best practice, training modules to improve the effectiveness
of the hotlines. We also are take down and -- content as quickly as
possible. We assess -- take down and monitor, and we've got working
partnerships with law enforcement and Internet centres around the
world.
So why are our statistics important?
And we collect accurate statistics to be able to pass through to
stakeholders. We provide actionable intelligence and report leads, we
build a global picture of what activity is going on on the Internet,
illegal child sexual abuse material and we give fact actual information
to the stakeholders on the trends and the data.
We developed our own in-house database, which is called the HR -- and
for the hotlines too.
And now looking at the role and the process, we've got 44 hotlines,
150 analysts that assess content, trace -- they deposit -- they see
some -- into the database, so play back information. And then we
liaise with law enforcement and take-down issues. And they notice the
content on the Internet.
We -- one of our objectives is to reduce the time that the illegal
content is on the Internet.
So one of our goals is to move as quickly as possible much so it's
all about closer participation of stakeholders.
Strategic alliances are very important to us. So if you look -- I'm
not going to move through all of these many but you can see from the
slide, we've got a lot of strategic partnerships in the industry.
We've -- with government, with NGOs.
Now, this part of the presentation, showing you some statistical data
and actual statistical data on the first challenge with material so
hotlines are for a variety of agreements on a national basis. But
typically what we look for is hosting in categories. We consider --
pornography, and child sexual tourism, child trafficking. Violence,
racism, and xenophobia, and also terrorism. The hotlines do offer a
broader categories than -- in some respects. But those are the common
categories that all association members and -- relate to. Statistics
so far, we have had 47,000 public -- suspected illegal content.
And this graphic is showing you where that content's going from
currently. So 40 percent of it is coming from in EU and 42 percent
from the U.S. and Canada, and 18 percent the rest of the world.
Really interesting data.
And so looking at trend data. So worrying development is increasing
incidence of very young children as victims. We've got age category,
and based on the findings, 12 percent of victims are infants. And this
last year was 9 percent.
79 percent of the victims are female. 11 percent are male.
And this is a graphic that we've got in our own report. And shows
that data. I will be able to read.
And also it's commercial and -- hosting. And when we say commercial,
that means a financial transaction is taking place. And it's about 11
percent of new volume. It's huge. So this is another slide that we
produce for the European finance coalition. This shows the trend data
in commercial hosting by country on a global scale.
So network action -- which is really interesting data. 34 percent of
commercial and -- 34,000 reports have been put into the database of
commercial activity so far. That represents 94 -- 95 percent of global
hosting. So we're capturing the data. This next slide actually gives
you the hosting countries. And as of those dates, and then looking at
non-InHope and hosting countries.
So you can see that we can start and put together a global view. We
see something hosted, and it gives us the opportunity to be able to
take that data down.
Hosting trends is just as -- gives you a flavor of the hosting
trends. We've taken three countries. And how they're mapping for
hosting.
Then as I said earlier, notice and take down is very important to us.
So we -- we monitor this closely. And each one of our deliverables is
to be able to improve this area. So you can see that we're -- majority
of the illegal content is being removed within a day. This gives us
the trend data. So content removed in a day is improving. Which is in
the target, to try and remove all this data once we see it within a
day.
This is very interesting data. So this is looking at particular
country, and their ISPs. And so the data on the left, the ISP on the
left, has been cooperating closely with law enforcement. So if you
look at the 32 percent of their content being removed in a day, 24
percent within two days. So you would say that this ISP is cooperating
with taking down illegal content.
However, if you then look to the far right, you look at an ISP that
actually has been notified of illegal content, they still got 57
percent of that still up and running after five days. And indeed, 38
percent is not removed at all.
So that would be an area for discussion with law enforcement. Not
for InHope, but for law enforcement to talk to the ISP why they have
not removed that content.
And the main trends that we can look at. So we can identify
partners. So with this, the light green is showing you traffic within
the domain. And it dies in July. But then the light blue, appears --
what's happened here is the domain name has changed. So we talked to
the hotline, and they've identified that -- where the traffic's moved
to. And if you look at that on a live issue, what this is showing is
within two and three month periods, the domain's moved country, they
also move ISP. So we can give that trend data to our stakeholders.
The notice and take down is an area of real importance to us. And
it's by working closely with the law enforcement we can improve that.
So this is a live example that the European hotline that is now
working much closer with the law enforcement, whereas it was taking six
days to take the content down, now they're talking much -- on a more
collaborative basis. That content was removed within a day. And that
is great news.
And that concludes my presentation. Thank you.
>> ANJAN BOSE: Thank you very much, Russell.
(Applause)
>> ANJAN BOSE: If anybody would like to point -- or have any
questions related to his presentation, very quickly if there is
anything that you want to add or to ask him.
Year data was very interesting, and particularly the ones that still
remains up after five days. And I think when John leads us to the
discussion, this could -- This can be some of the facts that can be
brought over. Our challenges and solutions.
>> ANJAN BOSE: So do we have any one -- yes, please?
Please introduce yourself.
>> BLASHMAR: My name is Blashmar, an academic from Norfolk
University.
Just the question on the backwards state categories you mentioned.
You mentioned access to children. But adult porn access to children.
Particularly is upset with adults and --
>> RUSSELL CHADWICK: Yes, it is. There are the hotlines have got
much broader categories. And when we research the common categories,
those were the 13 that we've got.
I can give you the data offline. In terms of how we get that, those
categories. The majority of the content is see some -- child sexual
abuse material. We do track terrorism, but it's not a huge amount. I
think some of that hotlines have got 26 categories.
>> ANJAN BOSE: So our next speaker is Susie Hargreaves from IWF.
She will start with a video, a very short video, that gives you very
comprehensively what they're doing.
(Video)
>> ANJAN BOSE: Can you hear?
No?
So -- okay. It worked in the morning; right?
>> SUSIE HARGREAVES: I'll just talk.
>> ANJAN BOSE: Want to try again?
Yes, we did, but -- okay. I'll try again and if you have your head
set, you can probably put it in.
(Audio volume inaudible in video)
>> ANJAN BOSE: I think we probably revert to hearing from the house
mics.
>> SUSIE HARGREAVES: Thanks very much I'm delighted to be here. Our
work has new members of the Dynamic Coalition. Thanks for inviting us
to join. We work with a lot of people in this room. Increasingly we
have a lot more global presence. I did have videos from the IWF.
They're on memory sticks, but I think every single member of law
enforcement has taken my memory sticks, so obviously not to give --
sorry, I can't show that video. It's up on our website, explains what
we do. The IWF is the UK hotline for enforcing criminal content, child
sexual abuse content anywhere in the world, nonphotographic content in
the U.K. and seen other content in the UK. 99.9 percent of what we do
anymore is child sexual abuse content. So the -- the video kind of
explains how we work. And just to go over some of the key areas.
We're a charity in self regulatory body, entirely independent of law
enforcement. And the governments and we're funded by the Internet
industry. 80 percent of our money comes from industry. 20 percent
from the EU as we're sort of the UK Internet centre. National and --
We're very interested in government's point view because we are self
regulatory. We have no powers to enforce the Internet industry removes
content voluntarily.
We -- we are one of the most successful hotlines in the world in
removing content in our own country. Content in the U.K. is removed in
less than an hour. We've also worked very hard internationally so that
over the last 17 year, we've been able to bring down content that we
identify from 20 days to 10 days, which is still ten days. We're very
proud of that. In the U.K. we have an exemplary record. When we
started at 18 percent of content is down to less than 1 percent. U.K.
is down -- hostile territories to host child sexual abuse content and
that's because of the partnerships. We're very fast, quick, and that's
because the Internet industry cooperates with us 100 percent.
So I will just quickly talk about some of the trends we see.
Russell's talked about some of these trends. So what's the scale of
child sexual abuse, how many of them are out there the reality is know
one actually knows. And then we're going to talk about some numbers.
We're always quite skeptical about the number, we hear numbers that
don't particularly hear what we see but we don't see what other people
see. So we're not saying we have any definitive date on this as well.
What we can tell you is that the UNODC reports that there are a million
images in. What our analysts see is about nearly all images we see are
duplicates. They're recirculated images. And some might be 10 or 20
years old. And we see roughly -- it's not an absolute figure, but
roughly around 1 to 2 new children a week. The importance of that is
every time we see a new child we can safely say -- every single image
is a child that's been sexually abused is a crime scene and every
single image is unacceptable and needs to be removed. How many times
they're back up again.
Type of content we see in 2012, 81 percent of that content was
children age 10 and under. 4 percent is under 2.
That's actually down from the year before. And 53 percent was of the
worst kind in the U.K. graded 1 to 5. 53 percent was level 4 and 5.
Which is the rape and sexual torture of children, mainly involving an
adult and a child. In the U.K. the content that we see, we tend to see
of it as white men abusing white children, predominantly girls,
obviously increases in number of boys. And we see an increasing number
of Asian children as well. We're starting to see new patterns emerging
particularly in discussion with other sister hotlines, in South African
hotlines, starting to see black children being abused by black adults.
This was our experience as well when we went to talk to law enforcement
partners in Uganda where we have been doing some work. We're starting
to see new patterns emerge. Obviously one of the issues around the
Internet penetration developing in developing countries is that we're
starting to see new areas of child sexual abuse emerge from there.
Just quickly tell you a little bit about -- Russell talked about
where the content was hosted. So I don't think I can talk particularly
about that. One of the things I wanted to talk about was the
importance of trying to stop people going there in the first place.
It's our experience from our research that the most likely people to
stumble across child sexual abuse content are young men aged 18 to 25.
And we'd like to start them going there in the first place. We've only
recently -- I have to say it's slow compare today other country,
introduced flash pages, so we have a blocking list for all content
hosted outside of the U.K. and from now anytime anybody tries to access
a URL that's on our blocking list, we now receive this flash page
warning telling them about the potential ramifications of what they're
doing. This is quite new thing in the U.K.
Taken us about 10 years to bring in. We're in the particularly proud
that this has taken so long. But it has just come into play.
The other -- the big issues for us in the UK -- big issues I would
say within the field are we have current situation is very high profile
in the United Kingdom. That followed we had a year of extremely high
public cases, what we call a Jimmy sable effect, a major permanent in
the U.K. being exposed as one of the biggest abusers of children of all
time. That continued and really peaked during the year with the two
murders of two young girls and the murder cases have been concurrently
for their murderers in the U.K.
And they -- both of them were shown to have images of child sexual
abuse on their computers. And they have no previous records or no
previous link to it. And then they went out and murdered these two
children.
And as a result of that, the first time we caught a link was paid
between looking at images and actually going out and committing
absolutely horrific offenses.
This races a huge outcry in the U.K.
From the media, from the public and picked up by government at the
highest level in the Prime Minister has been taking it forward. To
give you an example of the extent of the outcry, in July 2012 we did 75
pieces of media, that was television, radio, news print. In July of
2013 we did 2,500. And we're a tiny little charity based in the U.K.
So suddenly it's kind of totally gone right up into the highest --
you know, not just the highest echelons in terms of how but in terms of
public perception. It's a really big deal in the U.K. at the moment.
The scale of the problem is really big. We might be greater in doing
it in the U.K. at doing this but we have to tackle it internationally.
We're concerned about self generated content. Seen more and more self
generated content from young people, particularly teenagers. One of
the issues for us at the IWF, if we cannot verify their ages it's
impossible to take action. That's some scenario we're working on to
see how we can protect people in the 15 to 18 age group.
And another big area is obviously peer to peer much we only deal with
what's out there in the public domain. But a very big issue is the
issue of sharing content on peer to peer. And I've just been given a
warning. Sort of talk about the big issues and the overall scale of
the issue in the U.K.
And I think that pretty much captured it. So thank you.
>> ANJAN BOSE: Thank you, Susie. I think both of your presentations
speaks of the need to address this issue, global issue. And that we
don't have the ability in parts of the world. And I'm sure John will
in his session discuss the -- why we are doing this exercise, the one
that -- what it will lead us to. I think these are the other aspects,
that the type of abuse in the -- the scale of the problem, and why we
and the policy-makers needs to pay attention to the problem.
So thank you very much for sharing the trends and information about
the reports that you receive.
With that I pass it on to Linda Sharma. She's going to present the
work of the financial coalition and how that's going to -- the impact
it has made and some of the ongoing work in relation to fighting child
sexual abuse materials. Thank you.
>> BINDU SHARMA: Thank you, Anjan. It's a pleasure to be here. I'm
glad I actually follow Russell and Susan in their presentations because
they gave us an extremely clear overview of what the situation is
globally on the issue of child online sexual exploitation. I will
really zero in on just one programme, that is the commercial of of the
issue.
I'm Bindu Sharma, I represent the international Center for Missing
and Exploited Children. I'm based in Singapore, and I have a colleague
here in the audience with me also who's here from the U.S.
I will highlight one of our programme, the financial coalition
against child pornography, working towards eradicating online
commercial child pornography.
As I said, I don't want to repeat what Russell and Susie already
said. We have seen figures they've presented. We realise the scope of
the issue is pretty dramatic. Few statistics coming in here, one from
the U.S. line, we received 1.9 million reports in 1998. And also under
the child victim identification programme we have huge -- analyzed more
than 90 living images since 2002. You can well imagine the gravity of
the issue. Cyber Canada, on the commercial side I would like to
highlight this one statistic here. Cyber Canada, the Canada reporting
mechanism, in 2007 to 2008, over a two-year period, reviewed commercial
ebusinesses online and identified 27 types of payment systems used. 85
percent sold memberships with regard to monthly payments ranging from
$4 to $490.
And we all know as statistics put out by the UN, in the June 2010
globalization crime study. They suspect that this is -- industry
generates around 50,000 new images each year and it's probably about
200 million dollars EU.
In Asia these are the kind of media headlines we see. I will zero in
on a couple of them here.
Most recently, which has been most concerns to a lot of us here,
Anjan and I discussed it often. This case of the Swedish national
ordering on demand, online child sexual abuse of children based in the
Philippines. The payment mechanism used were extremely legitimate
corporate industry platforms like PayPal, credit cards. So that's
where the whole responsibility in the industry comes in on this issue.
The other one I would like to highlight is a recent study coming out
of Australia. Where in the study reveals that it was done in Tasmania,
actually. They interviewed about 400 students on campus. And a good
percentage of them -- the study was found that 1 in 10 people believed
there was nothing wrong in viewing child pornography, not adult
pornography. So these are the young 20-somethings within our society
today, who because of the exposure of illegal and inappropriate content
and the availability and accessibility of it on Internet, have come to
believe that it's the norm. It's okay to be there and to watch it.
So much for that. And I'll zero in on the financial coalition. The
background to that is it was launched in 2005 coming out of the scandal
in the U.S. where a PayPal account was being used to buy, sell, and
access child pornography. It was a piece of New York Times
investigative journalism. The way the U.S. reacted in a huge outcry.
The financial payments industry was called to the mat by the
congressional hearings and basically threatened with legislation unless
they did something.
And that's how the financial coalition was set up in collaboration
with two organizations, the national centre for missing and exploited
children and the Internet centre.
The one goal of the coalition is to really disrupt the economics of
this trade, to really make it unprofitable for people who use this as a
commercial ebusiness to be able to make money.
Selling such images.
As I said, we work with the national centres, our sister
organisation, the national clearinghouse in the U.S. around any issue
surrounding child protection.
And what's unique with the national centre is because of
congressional mandate, it has law enforcement sitting with them in the
NGO working with them. And therefore they have great power toss
actually make things happen.
If the financial coalition we work closely with one of the centres of
the centre, the cyber tip line. A reporting mechanism where public as
well as ISPs in industry can report in illegal content. I will skip
through this, but because of the fact that -- because of congressional
pressure as well as congressional mandate, the financial coalition in
the U.S. is an operational coalition where law enforcement sitting with
industry actually does test transactions to follow the money where
these -- to do a test transaction, to understand the business model of
these ebusinesses, e-commerce merchants. To follow the money,
understand the business model and disrupt the economics of it. I won't
go into the details of this. We don't have that much time.
But I would like to share the referrals that come in to the cyber tip
line are not only coming in from the U.S. The cyber tip line takes in
reports coming in from everywhere. The figures represented here on the
screen, that's something I would really like to give a definition of
what we stand for because otherwise they're open for misinterpretation.
These reports refer to -- the content is hosted by -- in the U.S.,
hosted on servers in the U.S. These figures represent the number of
individuals accessing or uploading illegal content, the uses in third
country that is accessing and using in U.S.-hosted site. So these are
figures from all different countries in Asia. Very often in Asia, when
I have conversations with governments, they say, no, no, it's not --
it's a western problem. And as Susie pointed out, at this point in
time the majority of the images that we see are of Caucasian children.
So Asian government's very comfortably say it's a western problem. And
these figures from the cyber tip line very clearly tell you that it's
an issue, it's a global issue.
It's -- Asian countries where they have biggest -- what do these
figures report?
These are the categories under which the reports come in. And child
pornography makes up over 90 percent of the reports that come in.
Who's reporting?
Initially it was the public. More reports were coming in from the
public. But increasingly as you see now, industry is stepping up to
the issue. And more of the reports are now being -- are coming in from
ISPs and technology companies and content hosts.
Who's reporting?
What's -- again, is very interesting is obviously when cyber tip line
was set up first, it was -- it's a U.S. hotline. Most of the reports
were coming in from the U.S. industry or U.S. public. Increasingly now
international reporting overtakes industry and public reporting in the
U.S. So it is indeed a global issue.
So you know, those are the figures coming out of the work of the
financial coalition.
In addition to that, the financial coalitions also over the years put
out three leadership pieces around merchant acquisition and monitoring
of best practices. Other best practices around trends, around online
crime. We also run a webinar for financial payments industry on child
pornography. Keeping child pornography participants out of the payment
system. The cyber tip line reports a 50 percent drop in the number of
unique commercial child pornography websites from 2002 into it.
The other trend that is very telling is again it's coming out of the
cyber tip Canada where they -- where they went through a -- the
monitoring of these emerchants. We have seen a consistent increase in
the membership costs for these kind of websites. Really clearly
implying that the industry and financial coalition efforts are
effective in disrupting that. And therefore it's far more expensive to
access these sites.
Who are our members?
It's a broad swathe of the financial industry. In the Asia district
it's slightly more diverse so we have regional enforcement companies as
well as NGOs. And in the Asian Pacific I will highlight one of our
efforts which is the most recent effort. In just last month in
September. Prior to that first three years have really been looking at
creating a wellness centre level. But over three years having built up
a sufficient membership in the Asian Pacific, I held in New Zealand a
round table specifically around the issue. We came out of that round
table and -- I'll backtrack. Weed 15 law enforcement officers, we had
nine bankers, five technology and ISP representatives there. So it was
a true cross-section of industry, law enforcement and civil society.
We came out with -- from it with a working group, and I am currently
working with four banks in New Zealand and they are in agreement with
the fact and having conversations with law enforcement to really make
live accounts, payment accounts available to law enforcement to do test
transactions within the New Zealand domain to track these kinds of
e-commerce, to understand their business model and then disrupt it.
And that's -- I can stop at that, really. Thank you.
>> ANJAN BOSE: Thank you very much, Bindu.
Any questions for Bindu, from the room, or any other panelists we
have?
I don't see any hands there. You did mention very interesting
points. I know I have been following the work of the financial
coalition. It's very promising that the industry is coming forward,
the bankers are moving forward.
Maybe it can infuse some of the members here back in this countries,
how to get these opportunities going.
And so with that I will flow to John, and to lead -- to lead us to
the rest of the session today on child abuse images as indicators.
>> JOHN CAR: Okay. Good afternoon. My name is John Car. And I've
recently been appointed global advisor to -- international, you never
guess it from my accent, I am in fact British.
And today we're meeting for the last time as the Dynamic Coalition.
In the future we're going to meet as the super dynamic, hyper
energetic, never-stop-moving coalition.
And I hope at the end of this presentation you will see why.
Now, I had a video to show you, but for the reasons we all now know,
I won't. What I will do is try to tell you briefly what that video
said.
It was an extract from one of our national TV news channels, ITN
news, that went out on the 28th of May this year. So not very long
ago. And the main person being spoken -- speaking, being interviewed
in this news clip -- by the way, if anybody wants it, the news clip, if
you let me know, I can send you a link to drop box -- sorry, sky drive,
where you can -- where you will be able to -- in fact I have it --
where you will be able to pick it up.
Anyway, the person being interviewed in this video clip is called
Peter Davis. And he is Britain's top cop when it comes to online child
protection. He's the head of seal. And in the interview what he
basically acknowledges, that the British police are unable to cope with
the volume of offenders and the volume of images which they now know
with a great deal of certainty are actually being circulated within the
Internet and in the United Kingdom. And I'll come back to those
numbers in a second.
The report of his interview. There's another video clip, which again
I would have shown if I could. But which again I'll send to you if you
want. And this video clip is from another news programme that went out
two weeks later on the beginning of June. And in that video clip you
see a man called Nick Moran, who is the head of the child protection
section, so to speak, of Interpol, the global police agency.
And in that interview, Nick Moran basically says there is no police
force in Europe that is on top of this programme. He was being
interviewed by Euro news, but he might as well have said the world.
The truth is that the volumes of images and the numbers of people
downloading and exchanging them online have outstripped the capacity of
any police force anywhere in the world to be able to deal with them by
conventional or traditional policing methods.
Now, we've known this quite a long time. People on the inside.
We've been aware of this fact for ages.
But never before have such senior police officers gone on the record
on TV and acknowledged it in public. And I think both of them deserve
a great deal of credit for their bravery in doing so. Because I'm sure
the reason they didn't previously disclose the true scale of this
problem was because they didn't want to panic the public or they didn't
want to, you know -- they didn't want to cause people undue or
unnecessary anxiety. And they probably thought that it was -- somehow
in the public's best interest for them to suppress this information.
I think suppressing the truth very rarely helps in any debate. But
what is absolutely true is that you can't possibly have an adult
conversation about what you're going to do about a problem unless you
all agree what the facts of that problem are.
I think now as a result of the these recent disclosures by Interpol
on the one hand on and the British police on the other, I think we can
all now begin to discuss and debate what it is in fact we're going to
do. Because even though we've heard about tremendous work being done
by InHope and the IWF and industry around the world and speak
specifically about Microsoft later on, whatever it is we've been doing
up to now, it's not working. Or it's not working well enough. We're
not matching the scale of the problem.
And we've got a decision to make, if you like, as a -- as a
community, as a world community, or however you want to put it.
Either we sit back and accept that this is the new reality, that it's
completely beyond the capacity of the state, and its police services to
deal with this problem, or -- and this is certainly the view at
international takes -- we try to up the ante and try to get more
attention and resources devoted to trying to deal with it.
And that's certainly the proposition that I'm going to put forward.
We have to find new ways to galvanize public opinion around this
question. Because unless we can -- if we can't find ways to galvanize
public opinion and get more attention focussed on this question, we
have no hope of getting governments to increase the efforts that
they're going to make and increase the resources that they're willing
to give to the police forces.
Sorry, I just remembered I said I would give you some numbers, I'm
now going to do that. These numbers came out of the U.K. but I have no
reason to suppose the U.K. is madly different from anywhere else. Even
if you took the U.K. as a single stand alone example, I think what
emerged was alarming.
This is what happened. One our children's organizations sent a
request, an official request, to every police force in gland Wales
asking the police force in that area to tell them how many child abuse
images they had seized inned period ended April 2012. In the time
scale that we were putting to, only put five police forces actually
replied to the question.
By the way, they were legally obliged to answer the question because
it was under our Freedom of Information Act.
Five police forces replied. None of them covered a major urban area.
They were all predominant forces that covered largely rural areas.
They had small cities in them, but they didn't -- it didn't include
London, didn't include Birmingham, Manchester or Leads. Covered
smaller population areas.
These five police forces nonetheless reported that in that two-year
period they seized 26 million images in the different actions in which
they had taken during that period.
I showed the data that we got to a professional statistician, and he
looked at the demographics of those five police force areas. And he
said, well broadly speaking it's not likely to be very different across
the whole country because the demographics of those five police areas
essentially representative of the population of gland and Wales as a
whole, and if that's true -- remember you're looking at populations,
probabilities within populations rather than necessarily level of
police activity alone.
If that was true, that would suggest that in excess of 300 million
images would have been seized by police forces across England and Wales
as a whole during that two-year period. That compares with, you know,
7,000 images that the police knew about in 1995, which was like year
zero for the Internet.
Now, just -- 300 million images is a very, very big number, it could
mean however, that only five guys did it. Because you don't know
exactly the volumes of each image -- of images that any individual
person who's arrested might have downloaded. But we do have a clue
about them. Because also during that interview, what the -- what Peter
Davis revealed was that the police had been monitoring the exchange of
child abuse images over a -- peer-to-peer networks in the United
Kingdom. And what he disclosed, again, very bravely, I thought, was
that the police had identified between 50 and 60,000 individual IP
addresses within the UK where people had either been downloading or
exchanging child abuse images.
These were known child abuse images, of course.
Now, just let me tell you, 50 to 60,000 people is a hell of a lot of
people. In no year -- in no year since records began in Britain -- and
that's 1998, for these purpose, in no year have the British police
arrested more than 2,500 people. What that mean, if you do the math,
it's quite easy, assuming there were no new crimes ever committed,
unrelated to child abuse images, the last person that the police
already know about today would not be arrested until 2032.
So in other words, again, Peter Davis says this specifically in the
interview, we cannot arrest them all. I'd like to, he said, but we're
never going to be able to do that.
The British prison system only has places for 91,000 people. At the
moment there are 92,000 people in those prisons. So even if we could
arrest them all, it's simply impossible to imagine what we would do
with them and where we would put them.
The key point is to illustrate, again, the point I was making at the
opening, whatever we've been doing up to now, it's not working well
enough. And we have to find new and better ways of addressing it.
What ECPAT International wants to do and what we hope one of the
things that will come out of this is a renewed coalition, a new
approach where we can all work together to try and find a way to push
this matter up the political agenda.
And with the U N's new millennium development goals coming into view,
people are working on the propositions now, what international very
much wants to do is to get the UN millennium goals to accept as an
indicator progress in this space, how measured reduction in the volume
of images and the number of people involved in that.
So that means getting hold of hard numbers. Because you will not get
a millennium development goal accepted by UN processes or the UN
machinery unless you can put hard numbers around it. And we want
people to work with us as ECPAT International to develop information
tools that will help convince the UN this is a realistic possibility.
I'm very happy to say that I've spoken to police officers around the
world -- because we know it's not always obvious, is it, if people
start getting numbers about your real level of achievement or work,
it's always going to be welcome. What it means in effect that you're
becoming more -- your actions are being more scrutinized. I'm happy to
say in this particular case maybe after a little bit humming and
hahing, the cops get the message.
If we cannot get numbers, if we can't get a better grip on the
numbers in this space, it's going to become increasingly difficult to
get governments to put money behind it. Because if we can't
demonstrate the -- in some way or another, it will never be perfect,
but there's no -- as Susie said, a lot of this activity you can never
be sure of the true scale of it. But there are bits of it that we will
be able to put together through monitoring peer-to-peer networks,
through collecting input data about the number of URLs that have been
reporting, through reports about the number of take-downs being
achieved. There are a whole range of sorts of numbers around that if
we can find a way to bring them together in an intelligent way, we
think we'll help shape the political agenda for this going forward.
But it's not -- what we also want the new super dynamic, highly
energized, never-stop-moving coalition also to think about are a range
of our measures. Because that thing around the millennium development
goals and the numbers and so on, that's pretty -- a median to --
conceptually important but nonetheless it's not going to deliver in the
very short term.
There are a number of other things that we want to see being promoted
more energetically. One of them is the greater deployment of products
like Microsoft DNA. Susie mentioned and I mentioned the role that
peer-to-peer networks are playing. Most of the stuff that Russell and
Susie were talking about earlier are reports that came from websites,
URL, content that was being found on the Web. There's very little
doubt in my mind that the bulk of the activity is shifting away from
the Web. The Web will always be important. We can never take our mind
off the Web. Because it is the most user friendly and easiest
interface to use.
But there's no doubt at all that big volumes of illegal images of
child abuse are now shifting into peer-to-peer networks but also I'm
sad to say on -- let's talk about using inscription and that kind of
thing. Let's come to that piece later. That's the really, really hard
stuff. This bit is doable now. Through user -- greater deployment of
products like photo DNA. Maybe other companies will develop tools
similar to.
Any may I don't remember cloud service provider, any major company,
in my view, that's providing any kind of public storage, whether it's
free or paid for, should be deploying photo DNA or a product like that.
Because if they're not doing that, then they're more or less saying
we don't really care that much about whether people are using the
services that we're providing to store or exchange or distribute child
abuse in it. So very much at the core of this will be an eye on this
new campaign that we hope will develop -- will be things like that.
Splash pages were mentioned by Susie in relation to people trying to
access URLs with known -- where the address is known to contain illegal
images. We're also pressing for in the U.K. and international also
pressing for more, wider basis, is for the search engine companies to
get involved. It's all very well if a guy is trying to access the --
we don't think the search engine companies should be an easy route for
people to find a lot of child abuse, that type material. And we --
we're not -- we don't -- we don't know anything officially yet, but I'm
expecting good news on that front from several search engine companies
or at least the two most important ones in the near future.
And so the other -- actually, we -- if I keep talking -- and I
certainly could, as you know -- there won't be any time for discussion.
So one other project that we want the new super dynamic, highly
energized never stop moving coalition also to join ECPAT International
in is developing a lexicon and a lexicon actually -- that's -- I'm
sorry, I shouldn't use posh words, should I?
A dictionary, of terms that are used in child abuse. One of the
wonderful things about ECPAT International, one of the reasons I'm
really happy that I'm going to be working with them much more closely
is that they are a global network. These guys have got feet on the
ground. And I'm going to get this number wrong. 75 countries? Sorry?
That's it. 75 countries, 82-member organisations. That's a great
joy.
The down side of that is trying to communicate fairly basic ideas in
the way that doesn't cause confusion.
I mean, you know, we all know the arguments around child abuse
images, child sex abuse material, child pornography, bullying, there's
a whole range of terms that some of us use constantly that actually
don't translate into some languages at all. The concept is very
difficult one to express. And it's a constant sort of barrier and it
always getting in the way of some of the discussions that we all are
trying to have.
Another of the projects that we're going to try and do and your
involvement or engagement with that will be very welcome -- not clear
how we're going to do it, but we're going to give it a go, develop a
lexicon we can publish. Anywhere in the world people want to engage in
the debate, there will be at one authority, reference point to look to,
to get some clarity about some of the concepts that we're going to be
using.
So there are a number of the concrete ideas that ECPAT International
wants to propose. We're not saying -- we're not asking for a vote or
for anybody to sort of start saying yes or no now. Think about it.
We're going to be in touch with you all in one way or another.
And we think it's a great way to go.
And next year when we meet, you'll be selling tickets in the hall for
people to get in. And we'll have to insist on the plenary room anyway
because that's the way it's going to be from now on, isn't it, Anjan?
Okay. Thanks.
>> ANJAN BOSE: Thank you so very much, John. And I think that was
very informative and giving us new thoughts to explore and move forward
with.
And I thank you for that.
What we would like to do now is, you know, if anyone around the room
has any comment to this idea, the proposition that we have, I certainly
know that, you know, Jacqueline and Kim would be definitely interested
in, you know -- you are working on the educational awareness bit. But
in terms of the photo DNA that John mentioned, it's a technology
contribution to this effort.
So any ideas that you as a member of the coalition can put forward to
advance this in your own capacity, in the way that you are linked to
the work, would be very much welcome.
And any format that you can propose to us that works in terms of
exchange, in terms of maybe an online platform, maybe setting up a
format structure that, you know, we don't have to wait until the next
year's IGF to come and say, okay, this is what we thought. We got in
the proposition last year.
I think what we can all agree on is if you think this is really a
good idea, if this is something that we need to do, to express your
thoughts and opinion either now or, you know, offline. So we really
would value your engagement. And we can only do it collectively. We
need the support of all the members here. So it's just an appeal.
And as John mentioned, next year we probably would have a way to --
even before we come, we can identify other issues that we need to plug
into this.
One of the things that we always struggle is how do we make our voice
within this room visible to the overall participants here at the forum.
Right?
We know we are being transcribed. This will appear in the
publication. Probably six months later. And probably .01 percent of
the participants will have a chance to read it.
So we do really want to make a difference through this coalition.
The reason why you are here, you are all very, very prominent members
of the -- you know, of the coalition. And you are very, very prominent
members of the world in terms of the work that you do.
So the urge here is to how do we make the participation count and to
make a difference, you know?
And that's an appeal from us as the chair and so -- I see a hand.
Preetam, if you can share your thoughts.
>> PREETAM MALOOR: Just a general thought, Anjan. We are making the
IT initiative page, as a platform for sharing information. And also
sharing tools, of course. So we would be happy to make that available
to the Dynamic Coalition and the core partners.
Thanks.
>> ANJAN BOSE: Thank you for that kind offer. And we will explore.
These are the kind of contributions each member can bring in and offer,
both in the terms of the experience, in terms of the resources.
Even when we go back, how do we take this issue to our own
governments, for example?
Because it has to be replicated, it has to be reflected in the work
that we do.
So I think we had -- yes, Jutta?
>> JUTTA CROLL: I just wanted to pick up that point regards how do
we convince our local governments, our national governments to put more
resources into the work of law enforcement?
I think that's also works, to have a little bit of exchange about
that topic much but that maybe could not take place on an online
platform. It must be more like a personal chat to each other. Because
I think it's not the problem that the government understands that there
are more resources needed for law enforcement, but once they say
officially there are more resources needed, that would be admitting
that there have been not enough resources put into law enforcement in
the first time. And that could not be done in the public or
officially.
So it needs a little bit of diplomatic exchange maybe, and that could
also be point of an exchange to learn about the approach, strategies
that have been used in other countries.
>> JOHN CAR: Certainly a very important strategy for us was getting
the police to tell us the truth. Without the truth you're hobbled. We
have a legal system. I think -- is there any country here that doesn't
have an official system for requiring public authorities to disclose
information?
We call it the Freedom of Information provision.
So if the police -- if you don't know the truth about what's going on
in your country, it's very hard to go to the government, you know, and
just say, hey, we need more.
Everybody -- anybody and everybody can say that. Otherwise you need
to develop your resources inside the police service to get the
information out.
>> ANJAN BOSE: Just to respond to John, I'm not many -- not many
countries in the developing region has this Information Act that forces
ultimately them to release the information to the public. But
definitely way to go. Yes, Jutta did say -- any questions?
Thank you; Jacqueline.
>> JACQUELINE BEAUCHERE: Thank you, Anjan. And thank you all the
panelists for some great information which is definitely complementing
a lot of the efforts we have underway at Microsoft.
Just a few weeks ago we had a visit from COP, the Child Exploitation
and Online Protection Centre in the U.K. I would like to add a couple
statics to the record to what John said. In addition to the 50,000
U.K.-based individuals currently thought to be involved in sharing
indecent images of children, they also talked about 4 million indecent
images found in the collection of just one offender in 2002. And they
also talked about 424 child victims in a single case earlier this year.
So that just goes to underscore the level of the problem at that
we're talking about here.
What I can offer from Microsoft is we have, as John mentioned, our
photo DNA technology. We have a one-pager, what we call, available
online for those who are not familiar with the technology and how you
can evangelize it and hopefully use it within your countries, within
various organizations. If you would like that link, we can certainly
provide it.
I'm also saying that we are always looking for new applications and
ways to extend and advance the photo DNA technologies much so please
share with us any ideas you might have in that regard. I can speak for
my colleagues in the digital crimes unit who own that technology, are
responsible for that technology.
And finally, from a measurement perspective, this is something I
would like to put out to all of you on the panel. We have something
that Kim and I directly control called the Microsoft Computing Safety
Index. And it's a gauge of consumer online habits and practices at the
technical level, at something beyond the technical level, and then at
something at the behavioral and sort of information level.
We do this survey every year in 20 countries. And since we control
that directly, we're wondering if there's any particular question or
item that we could ask people on a regular basis about child
protection.
We would love to get that in there so we can track and measure these
statistics on an annual basis. So please think about that and let
us -- let us know what we might be able to inject directly.
Thank you.
>> ANJAN BOSE: Thank you very much, Jacqueline. I think that's very
interesting, and we will definitely be looking at that.
Yes?
>> JOHN CAR: A quick point about countries that don't have Freedom
of Information. There are ways of getting information other than that.
But here's the point: If you walk around this conference, you see
everywhere people talking about the next billion Internet users.
They're going to be primarily in the developing world. So -- and all
of the evidence suggests that the problems that we've seen in the West
and in the northern hemisphere and so on will start to occur in those
countries as Broadband access begins to take up.
The potential for it to do harm is obviously greater in countries
where the infrastructure available to law enforcement in terms of --
and the infrastructure in terms of social services and the education
and awareness aspects of this is just a huge, hugely different. And
therefore the potential for harm is that much greater.
So one possible way, if we can establish some numbers and some
metrics on a global level at the UN and whereas international
institutions accept it broadly, accurate, that's going to help in any
of the other countries where they haven't got concrete information from
their own national police services.
>> BINDU SHARMA: I absolutely agree with you, John. In all my
conversations in the Asian region, the extent of the issue in our
country, and I have no data.
>> ANJAN BOSE: Is there any question from the floor, any more
question from the floor?
Okay. Yes, I would -- pass the floor to Susie for her comments,
please.
>> SUSIE HARGREAVES: In relation to supporting and resourcing the
police, I think one of the -- slightly worrying things that's coming
out now, I think in the U.K. is that there seems to be -- every problem
seems to be why isn't an industry paying for it?
Every single time you get politician, or you know looking at the
issue, they say, well, industry should be giving more. Microsoft has
money, and Facebook, and all the rest. And actually, it's really
important to be clear about what is police business and what isn't
police business. And what the police -- what should be funded properly
directly from government and what shouldn't. And I think that's
becoming a bit of a worrying trend in the U.K.
John might...
>> ANJAN BOSE: That's a very relevant comment, Susie.
I think with that we have closed right on time. And thank you all
for your participation.
We look forward to staying engaged.
Bindu has a closing comment.
>> BINDU SHARMA: I wanted to highlight one thing. John said let's
not talk about the dark side. If I can skip back about three or four
slides --
>> ANJAN BOSE: Just -- can I intervene?
What he said was -- I mean just to translate --
>> BINDU SHARMA: On the peer-to-peer exchange. And not talking
about drop box. The Asian Pacific coalition -- that's -- thanks, John.
In last year I ran a technology challenges work stream within the
coalition in Asia. We had five industry partners work with us. And
we've just in last two weeks put out a best practices to help file
sharing and file hosting companies fight of the distribution of child
exploitation content. So we really tried to put together -- it's a
short ten-page document, just to put together industry thoughts around
how can we deal with this issue?
So I just wanted to talk about it. It is a first -- it's a start.
So it is out there. And it's available on our website.
>> ANJAN BOSE: Thanks very much, Bindu. I think we did what John
alluded to, is that we do cover state by state and first things first.
But we do know that these are emerging issues that we do need to get
into. And thanks for sharing that information.
>> BINDU SHARMA: I just want to say that we have taken a stab at it.
That's a start.
>> ANJAN BOSE: With that we close the session, and thank you very
much, all, for your participation.
(Applause)
>> ANJAN BOSE: Thank you.
Before you all leave, I just, you know, want to acknowledge the
presence of -- Junita Upadnayay, are our deputy director for
programmes, who probably you have already met individually. But just
wanted to acknowledge her presence today as the -- you know, the
manager from ECPAT International. Because all the discussions that we
are having here will actually help us to formulate our own programmes
and strategize it. Thank you for coming, Jeneta, and spending your
time with us. Thank you.
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the proceedings.
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